General Oud Distillation Variables

[Martin]

I’d like to learn more about (in a general way) how various distillation variables affect oud oil aroma.
One way to catagorize would be:
1. Apparatus. Copper pot versus steel pot, etc.
2. Procedures. This include pre-distillation including wood pulverizing and preparation, Collection variables, for example, cooling of condenser. And, possibly post distillation methods like fractioning and aging.

I’m most interested in hydrodistillation practices because that appears to be the most prevalent method. I would like to know what the trade offs are between steam and hydrodistillation too. I’ve read where steam distillation sacrifices more volitile top notes. Is there any advantage?

I’m curious because I’ve read where there is risk of “scorching” an oil by excessively high temperatures. I’ve not smelled an oil yet that had a burned aroma.

I’ve also read that copper pot or apparatus neutralizes sulphides and imparts a degree of sweetness to an oil.

What are the trade offs of agarwood grind/ particle size?

How do water types affect the aroma?

I’m not asking anyone to reveal proprietary information. I am seeking to learn more about how these variables and decisions affect the oil aroma. I realize there are only a few here with direct hands on distillation experience. However, people who are closely but not directly involved should know a good deal about these issues. At least that’s what I’m thinking.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

To my humble very small experience :

. Apparatus. Copper pot versus steel pot, etc.

= it doesn't change a lot, copper tends to give bit more mellow oil, steel bit sharper that can be corrected with good (and unaggressive curing).

Procedures. This include pre-distillation including wood pulverizing and preparation

I tend to work with shavings that doesn't need to be grinded (I try to avoid the max) if it's big pieces then it's grinded, I personally tend to avoid dust size = headache, needs stirring ect.

For me perfect size is x3/x3 bigger than rice grain size.

Collection variables

I do the classic x3 : the collector gives you the evidence that it's the end of the round, I will not mention more lol.

cooling of condenser.

I tend to get decent yield with a cooler stays between 30 and 35°c which is a little little bit more than tank water temperature.

And, possibly post distillation methods like fractioning and aging.

This sorry I can't mention.

I’m most interested in hydrodistillation practices because that appears to be the most prevalent method. I would like to know what the trade offs are between steam and hydrodistillation too. I’ve read where steam distillation sacrifices more volitile top notes. Is there any advantage?

The trades off ? I didn't get it sorry.

You can steam at 85°c and you can steam at 110°c it won't give the same result.

The previous will be heady top notes ...
Maybe you get your info from someone who does generally hydro at low temperatures ...

Generally, it's been said that steams give a bit more yield.

At the end of the day, it depend on the result one wants to achieve and one wants to buy.

The last IO FHI @Faizal_p and @Faheem was steam or am I wrong ?

What about the super Sri Lankan one ?

What are the trade offs of agarwood grind/ particle size?

Bis repetita nolunt ...

How do water types affect the aroma?

The cleaner is the water, the cleaner is the smell, after this, there is pH variations that will affect the smell but I admit not being a scientist nor a master and I doubt someone out there or elsewhere knows 200% the result before starting distillation...

I’m curious because I’ve read where there is risk of “scorching” an oil by excessively high temperatures

If someone higher temperatures, he must be sure of his cooler and that he put the right amount of water in the pot.

Missing the last one can end a real catastrophe.

I can't talk about my curing and aging technics.

I hope I answered to most of your questions ...

 

[Martin]

Thanks Fajid that’s a start but I’m hoping many others will chime in.
What about the use of Rotary evaporators to remove moisture and promote faster curing of an oil? What is the upside and downside of doing so?
Is there any benefit to using a pot with an mechanical agitator / sitirrer?
Can the mulch from a hydrodistillation be steam distilled afterwards to increase yield?
Are vacuum pots used ? Or only pressure pots?

 

[Ouddict]

Thanks Fajid that’s a start but I’m hoping many others will chime in.
What about the use of Rotary evaporators to remove moisture and promote faster curing of an oil? What is the upside and downside of doing so?
Is there any benefit to using a pot with an mechanical agitator / sitirrer?
Can the mulch from a hydrodistillation be steam distilled afterwards to increase yield?
Are vacuum pots used ? Or only pressure pots?

Some great questions there, but I’m curious. These are really detailed questions that betray intimate knowledge of distillation techniques. You seem to know far more than the average Ouddict! Just wondering where you gained this knowledge from?

 

[F4R1d0uX]

What about the use of Rotary evaporators to remove moisture and promote faster curing of an oil?

I was about to buy something more or less similar but I found better.

Those who used something similar got satisfying results.

I think @tyson got a rotovap, maybe he will help more, at least for sandal
...

Is there any benefit to using a pot with an mechanical agitator / sitirrer?

Even with bigger size grains, I ask stirring between each fraction when I ask for fractions (almost all the time).

Can the mulch from a hydrodistillation be steam distilled afterwards to increase yield?

I know this happens in Indonesia time to time, never heard about it elsewhere.

I'd like to be able to be on stage and be able to try it once ... Not really to increase the yield but to experiment notes variations ...

Are vacuum pots used ? Or only pressure pots?

I heard this from someone who has a pressure pot and who distills between 1bar and 1.5bar : results weren't that nice ...

 

[Abu Amir]

The ultimate way to preserve the oil is to capture evrey type of substrate of it. U want to represent the plant/Wood as it is in there natural form.
In my opinion this can be only achived with clean room envierment.
The ultimate oil should give u the same top on HPLC as in the natural one.

 

[Abu Amir]

Essential oil with that property not only smells amazing they also have medecinal effect. Only few in the world can and have mastered the techniq

 

[F4R1d0uX]

The ultimate way to preserve the oil is to capture evrey type of substrate of it. U want to represent the plant/Wood as it is in there natural form.
In my opinion this can be only achived with clean room envierment.
The ultimate oil should give u the same top on HPLC as in the natural one.

Never saw this kind of test into Oud and I really don't think it should be a norm, but I respect your point ...

Envoyé de mon MI 8 en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[tyson]

Yeah rotovaps are awesome for drying and curing oils , also for separating fractions , there is no right way to do it , lots of myth s and misconceptions . Right now im working on live flower oils , new tech with 99.9998 pecent pure butane , the plant material is fresh live flowers and then the butane is supercooled and ran through a chamber with the flowers . Producing the highest quality concrete imaginable , still working on it though but it shows huge promise . after the defat step its an absolute . Its at this state ive been playing with ratio's and cohabitating it in the rotovap with the first fraction of hojary . The first fraction of hojary vaporizes and absorbs into your skin and off clothes super fast so all your left with is the pure flower essence , flowers were not meant to be smelled in there pure oil form so I need a carrier oil that releases on contact and leaves only the flower smell .
Live flower absolutes are going to blow your mind !!!

 

[Martin]

Some great questions there, but I’m curious. These are really detailed questions that betray intimate knowledge of distillation techniques. You seem to know far more than the average Ouddict! Just wondering where you gained this knowledge from?

Hi Nadeem,

I participate here, read hours and hours of old threads at Gaharu, Ouddict and Basenotes and ask others including vendors wuestions when I can. I also read about other essential oils, etc. online.

Although I knew a little about oud oil starting in 2009 when I began lurking on Basenotes, it was last summer that my interest spiked. I have a fragrance buddy with a great collection of oils. He’s been enjoying oud oils for 8-9 years. He sent me some samples and prompted me to make my first buy (Oud Extraordinare—go check out my noob thread on that at BN). He also suggested a few oils and sold me a 3ml Borneo 50k. If you read my posts here you’ll realize I largely ignored advise to sample oils and instead did a dive into the deep end of the pool. I could have bought a nice new sports car for what I’ve spent on oils and woods so far. I’m fortunate to be able to do so despite being a working guy. I enjoy the oud oils (and other essential oils) woods, people and the LEARNING that I can justify the expense so far. Fragrance has been a long time hobby of mine as well.
So, to sum up, my degree of interest and commitment is no doubt above the norm. That’s the way I go when I’m interested. Learning is part of what makes life enjoyable and fun.

 

[Martin]

The ultimate way to preserve the oil is to capture evrey type of substrate of it. U want to represent the plant/Wood as it is in there natural form.
In my opinion this can be only achived with clean room envierment.
The ultimate oil should give u the same top on HPLC as in the natural one.

What kind of method are you speaking about here? I have agree I am most interested in the intrinsic agarwood aroma and least interested in induced notes.

 

[Ouddict]

Hi Nadeem,

I participate here, read hours and hours of old threads at Gaharu, Ouddict and Basenotes and ask others including vendors wuestions when I can. I also read about other essential oils, etc. online.

Although I knew a little about oud oil starting in 2009 when I began lurking on Basenotes, it was last summer that my interest spiked. I have a fragrance buddy with a great collection of oils. He’s been enjoying oud oils for 8-9 years. He sent me some samples and prompted me to make my first buy (Oud Extraordinare—go check out my noob thread on that at BN). He also suggested a few oils and sold me a 3ml Borneo 50k. If you read my posts here you’ll realize I largely ignored advise to sample oils and instead did a dive into the deep end of the pool. I could have bought a nice new sports car for what I’ve spent on oils and woods so far. I’m fortunate to be able to do so despite being a working guy. I enjoy the oud oils (and other essential oils) woods, people and the LEARNING that I can justify the expense so far. Fragrance has been a long time hobby of mine as well.
So, to sum up, my degree of interest and commitment is no doubt above the norm. That’s the way I go when I’m interested. Learning is part of what makes life enjoyable and fun.

Wow... I never realised there is so much info on the forums. Unfortunately I spend too much time running it rather than reading. As for spending enough money to buy a Sports car, I know what @Habz786 would have bought...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

I’d like to learn more about (in a general way) how various distillation variables affect oud oil aroma.
One way to catagorize would be:
1. Apparatus. Copper pot versus steel pot, etc.
2. Procedures. This include pre-distillation including wood pulverizing and preparation, Collection variables, for example, cooling of condenser. And, possibly post distillation methods like fractioning and aging.

I’m most interested in hydrodistillation practices because that appears to be the most prevalent method. I would like to know what the trade offs are between steam and hydrodistillation too. I’ve read where steam distillation sacrifices more volitile top notes. Is there any advantage?

I’m curious because I’ve read where there is risk of “scorching” an oil by excessively high temperatures. I’ve not smelled an oil yet that had a burned aroma.

I’ve also read that copper pot or apparatus neutralizes sulphides and imparts a degree of sweetness to an oil.

What are the trade offs of agarwood grind/ particle size?

How do water types affect the aroma?


I’m not asking anyone to reveal proprietary information. I am seeking to learn more about how these variables and decisions affect the oil aroma. I realize there are only a few here with direct hands on distillation experience. However, people who are closely but not directly involved should know a good deal about these issues. At least that’s what I’m thinking.

Hi Martin

have you read the Oud Distillation thread here and On Basenotes (2014)? i have discussed most of these in detail in both those places

 

[Martin]

Hi Martin

have you read the Oud Distillation thread here and On Basenotes (2014)? i have discussed most of these in detail in both those places

TY. I’m going to go back and read again. I have read extensively there but I might have read at a time when I didn’t have the framework for learning that I have now.

I am interested in hearing various views and having something of value to discuss (oud/agarwood related) at this otherwise barren place!

 

[Martin]

I was about to buy something more or less similar but I found better.

Those who used something similar got satisfying results.

I think @tyson got a rotovap, maybe he will help more, at least for sandal
...



Even with bigger size grains, I ask stirring between each fraction when I ask for fractions (almost all the time).



I know this happens in Indonesia time to time, never heard about it elsewhere.

I'd like to be able to be on stage and be able to try it once ... Not really to increase the yield but to experiment notes variations ...



I heard this from someone who has a pressure pot and who distills between 1bar and 1.5bar : results weren't that nice ...

Hi Farid, help me understand why you want the oud oil fractions instead of the complete oud oil, top, middle and base? What is the advantage? For example, can you make 2 or 3 oils from the components of 1? Is this a common and standard practice?
It’s my conjecture that some oils on the market at large (not here, I don’t think) are Frankenstein oils composed of distillation back ends and fragments. That’s only a guess though as I have no direct evidence. Okay, I’ll admit to being wary/ skeptical with all things oud/ agarwood. Hehehe.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

Hi Farid, help me understand why you want the oud oil fractions instead of the complete oud oil, top, middle and base? What is the advantage? For example, can you make 2 or 3 oils from the components of 1?

Nah excuse my bad English, replace 3 fractions by 3 collections and assembling.

It’s my conjecture that some oils on the market at large (not here, I don’t think) are Frankenstein oils composed of distillation back ends and fragments. That’s only a guess though as I have no direct evidence. Okay, I’ll admit to being wary/ skeptical with all things oud/ agarwood. Hehehe.

It's more big scale factory standards practice and not in every Oud countries ...

 

[F4R1d0uX]

What kind of method are you speaking about here? I have agree I am most interested in the intrinsic agarwood aroma and least interested in induced notes.

I recommed you co2 select extract ouds .

 

[F4R1d0uX]

Hi Farid, help me understand why you want the oud oil fractions instead of the complete oud oil, top, middle and base? What is the advantage?

Ok I think I got you !
When I'm monitoring a distillation, I'm everydays, many times a day with my partner on whatsapp.

We check the soaking (changing water).

We check temperature (when we do variations, ask to smell the hydrosol time to time before any changing) the water tank, the pot, the cooler and the collecter. I assist the collection.

So I assist stage by stage.

As I'm talking, I'm being distilled an oil. 1st and 2nd fractions are collected in 2 different jars, waiting for the 3rd which started yesterday evening (french timezone).

At the end of the process, we will let 3rd fraction to rest and we will start separation and assembling.

If around you, you see 2 or 3 oils from the same area which shares similarities with different shades of colours (from clearer to darker) there is big chance that the seller is selling you 2 or 3 fractions of the same oil (with a different name and story).

This is not LMK practice ...

 

[Ouddict]

If around you, you see 2 or 3 oils from the same area which shares similarities with different shades of colours (from clearer to darker) there is big chance that the seller is selling you 2 or 3 fractions of the same oil (with a different name and story).

This is not LMK practice ...

It’s a trick/technique used by some sellers - not on this forum. It’s ok if they are honest about it, but they aren’t.

My advice to people who ask is to just go with their nose and be careful from “education” from vendors. Simple. Some may tell you lies, others may embellish it, while others will truncate the truth. The first two are unacceptable but happen.


Bottom line is there is a conflict of interest when you ask them. And I say that as a vendor myself. I’ve been asked things in private and sometimes I’ll tell people 80% of something and other times 20% depending on what they are asking and why. You can’t expect a vendor to give out commercially sensitive info. There is only one guy I told the 100% full details about a particular oil and he’s now banned due to breach of trust.

Just enjoy the oils and follow your nose.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

It’s a trick/technique used by some sellers - not on this forum. It’s ok if they are honest about it, but they aren’t.

Well I don't know I smelt some very nice 2nd fractions.

This is a common practice in India for example they will do
- 1st zaal
-2nd zaal
-kunda (3rd fraction)
-boya (4th fraction which is basically wood fat sucking)

It needs experience to grab the differences.

What I told above is for Western market sellers, it can happen personally I'm not comfortable with it but I can understand customers can be.

There are top notes lovers as there are base notes lovers.

The fact that it's hard to justify can push a seller to embellishment of truth I admit.

From my knowledge I don't know sellers doing so in here and never red such things from others neither and after all it's not my buisness at all.

I personally don't do this. I tried different curing and aging of the same oil to see how it affects the smell on mid long term and I had good results but never sold same oil under different names neither.