Discussion in 'General' started by Mr.P, Aug 3, 2016.
@Nikhil - great plain speak. The bard has spoken again
And regarding high prices I have some valid questions as well. And I am being totally reasonable. And this is also directed to thes so called Investors turned anti-parties:
1. How do you breakdown the artisanal Oud pricing ?
2. Have you spent enough to bypass Oud lobbies and CITES certificates for Export/Import ?
3. Why do 150 and 1000 USD Ouds smell same ? Btw, you just cannot question my sense of smell or for that matter anyone's here. They may not be able to break it down but most members have come here after their tryst with the world of Niche.
4. You guys take Paypal ? So no question of taxes etc. You save a lot.
5. The presentation is a basic glass bottle with a basic plastic stick. No money spent on presentation at all. At similar prices you can get niche perfumes with gold dust lol.
6. We have never questioned you guys. Believed in what you had to offer. Fought with other vendors for you. Quit forums. We have been barred. But we still support you in every way possible. So, have you guys ever given a thought what we go through in our lives to achieve the funds or how we compromise on family time just to participate in these useless online oxfordian debates ? Ponder please.
We are all as flawed as you vendors are. We are as big an opportunists as you guys are. We have ignored mistakes on both forums like you have. And we have moved on. Now, for one last time. Get an equilibrium. Settle your god damn scores and get back to making good Oud.
None of my questions need to be answered. They may be completely baseless. The ultimate thing is to let you know.......we want Oud. Make this process cost effective and sober. We are one huge oud family. Stop this cultural asaociation and scientific gibberish. To no intellectual they mean anything. God bless you all. Just chill out and enjoy Oud. Life is too short for complications. Its only when you treat 5 year old kids with Advanced Liver Cancer will you realise the value of time and affection ! I am a surgeon and I come here for brotherhood. Cheers.
@Nikhil S I'll try to answer best your questions,
We are a bona fide limited liability company based in the UK, prior to this conducting business as sole trader. We have to pay corporation tax in the UK at 20%. Even though we use PayPal we still have to declare our business activities and pay an accountant.
Our pricing is based on costs- wood, gas, lighting, if we've purchased equipment, flights etc then we also try to recoup those.
Our bottles are specially polished and therefore we had to purchase a much larger amount, probably more than we'll ever use!
Also anyone who's purchased full bottles from us will know we have wooden gloss boxes which didn't come cheap.
We regularly pay for CITES documentation and costs associated here in the UK too.
Any further questions please ask or pm me
Your prices are excellent. You have seen my video . The questions are for 550+ to 2500+ and above brother Faizal. That is quite expensive for 3mls.
@Nikhil S and others
Here is how I see it. Artisanal oudh is a luxury. Price logic doesn't follow in luxury. Why do we feel entitled and feel we have the "right" to Demand from supplier and know exactly the costs behind a product and need the supplier to justify it? Don't get me wrong. Who doesn't wanna have more great oil for less pice. I wanna buy stuff for my children and grand children. But hey that's not how the world operates.
Also pls pls pls share $150-25 oils that perform same as $900-1500+++ seriously I would owe you the world and make it up to you.
In my dozens of blind trials amongst now closer to over 100 oils I cannot really agree with you. Sure sometimes I prefer a $350 oils over $800 one but there is no denying the complexity and projection of the higher priced oil. E.g IO sri pada wins it over adhii for me. Overal that is. The opening of adhII is genius. And then EO SS to my nose trumps not only both of these but any other SL gyrinops oil I had. And no this is not because I spent top dollars on it and now feel I have to praise it. I spent top dollars on adhii too. Spent even higher on EO borneo 50k and here to tell u that for me this oil's dry down is no Bueno.
@Faizal_p went wayyyyy out of his way to share above. I wouldn't have. Here is the oil here is the price. Take it or leave it. Wait for a sale. Or maybe never goes on sale. Free market decides.
Now pls let's stop asking our fellow artisans to give us free be and expect gifts from them in each shipment. I know of no other industry at least in North America that does this. We shouldn't take their generosity and kindness as our god given right. Even if no free lunch and we are somehow paying for these samples.
Eg EO sultan Abdus selam. Has hints of yusuf and SS also hint of hainan and I badly wanted to justify to myself I don't need this oil and instead can get 3-4 Yusuf for one of SAS. But after few sample swipes I had to accept defeat and come to terms with that one is head and shoulders above other. No comparison aside from minor shared notes. You get what u pay for. Yusuf falls way short next to SAS.
so far that has been true In artisanal oud scene. Ie prices are to my hoesnt and frank opinion justified. If scent doesn't always justify it, style uniqueness or supply demand does.
Another example is AA lavanya vs kalyani. As brilliant as kalyani is, lavanya is truly that much more subtle nuanced and layered.
Opposite examples are rare. I am sure they exist but very very rare.
Shareef Ceen hits way above its weight. So does bustan. IO view zephyr albeit young and need aging, hits way above its price point ditto EO jing shen lu...
To each their own.
I like your stance towards Artisans. I appreciate that you have a vast experience. I have found your posts valuable and the passion for Oud speaks. However, we must understand that other on this platform may have more experience than you. And no one else s experience is lesser to you. If you limit your Oud sphere to ASO and Ensar and AA then such problems arise. For someone who has always bought Nagchampa sticks in a luxury Indian store in UK, it will be tough to believe that same thing costs like peanuts in smaller stores. Gotta move that ass.
1. Samples. I have always been the most decent buyer. I NEVER ask for samples even with my purchases. If the sellers does it out of his free will. I really appreciate it. And they do. Guys like ASO have been more than generous. Thats why I support them with a 100pc honesty on a channel that has 7k viewers as opposed to 300 forum readers here. They get more exposure. You must watch my videos to see how much effort I put to the shot and information rather than makeup. And I put equal efforts for 90 dollar attar and 900 dollar one. 7k viewers and growing. It has taken day and night to be there. Yet I am down to earth. I talk with vendors on a personal level. This forum may seem otherwise.
2. Oud for you is luxury for me it is not. Thats my view. Oud is necessity for me. I burn it, apply it. At times I simply open the bottles take a whiff. Luxury is travelling in Private jet. I have always been the economy traveller. I save for Oud. You dont save for luxury. If a person saves whole life to buy a RR Phantom. He will buy a dream car not luxury because he doesnt have anymore funds to sustain it or maintain it.
3. Zak s oils start at 90. Have you heard of Tajul Bakshi. Try his oils and compare your best Indian luxury oils. Yes at times their 150 oils are exactly like 790 oils or maybe even better. Kalakassi 120 years see the retail price and order No.1/No.2 from Tajul sir.
4. No one is trying to discredit vendors. Have you not seen the "What do you think about the price of Oud" pages on this forum or equivalent forums ? It is a very important part of our discussions. An open debate helps both parties understand each other s needs ans limitations.
5. Price is not controlled by you or me or demand. Price is totally controlled by comparison. Star Oud by Treasure Oud is around 300 or lesser. That is a wonderful oil. It is one of the most special Old school ouds. If everything were left to you it would cost 1500. They supply to Firmenich so lets not talk about GCMS.
6. And pls ask Mandeel brother to show you GCMS of your legendary oils. Prepare for war. Lol.
7. There are lot of sensitive topics and distillation secrets including the truth about many oils. I am NOT comfortable sharing any thoughts on that. With your vast experience I am sure you ll reach the truth. May Almighty guide us. No oud, oud maker or Oud applier is above him. Almighty resides in our mind, heart and tongue. Almighty sees all hears all. I totally believe in protecting the vendors/distillers interest but one cannot be oblivious to everything as start preaching on others only to be shellshocked when almighty reveals truth. Many guys have tried to expose lies on this forum including the most respected vendors against each other. So with a heavy heart I say the truth is eveywhere laid out on these forums for you. What makes you so calm and composed and we are one happy family sorta demeanour. Vendors are bashing themselves on pricing to distillation. So if you feel its not right to ask pricing dont ask. Others will do it.
8. Just about a month ago or maybe more. A very prominent and respected member had questioned my intentions when I liked Brother Ensar s comment on Gaharu. And a load of hurt feelings came out from that person. I agreed with Ensar s feelings in the first Para and how he came to the conclusion or even felt the need on questioning my alliance left a very bad taste with me. I am a very transparent person. What I say or do is exactly how I am. People find it tough to look straight into my eyes in real life. When these fitional online characters start questioning you it sort of scars you. Makes you feel like a threat or an outsider. The point is we all have freedom of speech and action. Even after doing your best for the community in action and not vocally you get treated like this. You truly understand that these soulless Oud hunters truly do not believe in the concept of community. Either way I have chosen to look beyond it. But I did immediately quit the forums. I felt hurt. So if we can talk freely with trying to prove allegiance its good enough. Ensar has been pioneer in defining artisan oud. It is only after him others came to light. Yet I do not agree with his antics or whatever. But it comes merely to soul of Oud. He has been a guiding star for the community and an exceptional support to my Oud learning even though we have never talked. Yet I question about his prices and techniques and he replies honestly. Does this mean I am anti Ouddict ? Oh no. I have more friends here . I dont discriminate or lick arse for samples. Life is good. My cause is growth of traditional oud and attar industry. My curiosity is never reflected in my reviews. I chose wisely.
I rest my case. I have always been a peace keeper. But I also represent the customer s feelings. All the best to everyone. I have nothing more to contribute to any controversial discourses now. If these dicusssions happen on a daily basis and to no avail. The purpose is defeated. And we all will land up in mental asylums. Lastly, whats a singer without listeners, whats a writer without readers....
Well, thanks and thanks. I entirely missed this point. Yes, you are right. Over-joy might have led to bombastic descriptions. But my respected most Rasoul, this overjoy generally leads them to over-pricing. If you could spare some time, read the given descriptions of oils on different website. You will come to know FIRST-PRICE-THEN-EXCITEMENT phenomenon is the dominant note. Apart from all that, your point is valid.
This thread has given me a lot of stuff to learn. ‘ikhtila’af’ is not a bad thing at all. To be objective is a dream without discourse. I have a certain view about Chinese Oud, Meruke and etc., but a lot of respected members have view about them contrary to mine. It will continue; so, it does not mean it is without result. This thread brought a lot of information about distillation, terminology, species, etc. that I could not learn otherwise. Putting aside bitter remarks, if they were present in some posts on both the Forums, the rest was excellent. I can visualize Newton and Einstein discussing Mechanics and Relativity. Their clash proves to be beneficial for all in the end. What Respected Jawed, Respected Shabby, Loving F4R1d0uX, Respected Rasoul, Respected Alkhadra, Respected PEARL, and respected Faizal expressed, if some sentences are omitted in two or three posts out of hundreds, the rest is worth-reading. And I was stunned that how much they know, and how strong is their analytical power. So, I just listened to them because their proficiency in Oud Art is better than that of mine.
Oud is a luxury or a necessity is not an issue at all. Yes, here it is just the Oud-view that matters. For me, soya bean oil, canola oil, or sunflower oil is a necessity, while oud is a luxury. Its being a necessity is not something objectionable. What I have in my mind is Oud is Bugatti, and I consider it a luxury.
Differences cannot be eradicated. If it can be achieved, it can be achieved through hypocrisy. Otherwise, it must exist. Only one thing is a trouble on the way, that is one’s firm decision to belittle one who differs. I don’t think so it happens at a mass level here. I felt I said something wrong, I apologized respected Shabby. Even better attitude I have seen on the Forum. I remember when a respected member on other Forum deleted his post in Zil Haj, and posted that may God bless us with love and ability to love all. If at all one becomes a victim of some ‘unguarded moments’, and something bad has happened, one can rectify. Over all scenario of the Forum is beautiful.
Respected Rasoul, I like your flare. A few days back I said you are blessed with seventh sense- shock-absorbing faculty is so strong. I really respect you because now you have widened your vision and started coming out of the limited apartments of Oud. Dear Nikhil has rightly said that majority of us are stuck in IO, EO, ASO, AA, FO, while they are actually newbies. The way a newbie wearer enjoys a lot, but knows less. But a refined experienced wearer knows a lot, and that knowing gives him or her the felicity that a newbie can’t dream of. I am not criticizing at all. All these ‘Os’ are kids when compared with Zak’s father- the Master. Second, you seem to be familiar with the tip of Oud Iceberg, while that is just tip. (Generally, tip of iceberg causes problem for ships (wearers), but for those who are not vigilant. What dear Nikhil has said is very much correct, and he said that out of love for us. It is really interesting you have got plus one hundred samples. All for what? To study Oud or fragrance, or the brands, or the reason behind price? I cannot understand the reason actually.
By the way within a week I will get a lot of samples of Oils, and Musk. But I am not going to get ‘oleo-resin’ or ‘oleo-resinous’ oil. I have got this point that it cannot be distilled or should not be distilled. But if a valid and authentic person is saying so, I am bound to accept that. Acquiring is a separate issue.
Love and peace!
Dear Nikhil, you know exactly what you talking about here, i only wish some of the people who have some of the latest barn with out barn hype oils to try some of the Tajul direct work and compare.
Yes dear Peter. Your last line makes your experience with such oils evident. His No.1 and No.2 are stunning. Presently running batches. Very close to commercial luxury oils of Gulf at atrocioua prices. Been there done that. All these expensive Organic Oils too are same or inferior.
Where are these No. 1&2? I can’t see them on the website:
i have 5 of tajul work but are all above 20. i can only imagine about his number 1 and 2 works.
his site has not been updated for many years now
Just mail him brother. Or talk with him. I particularly love No.2. I dont really know if it will still be available.
So should I contact him directly? Does he offer sampler pack to purchase in your knowledge?
Yes you can brother through the mail. He is a bulk dealer. He might offer you a tola if he still has that left. I doubt it. I have friends off these forums who would pick up tolas if they get a hint lol. It is a very good oil imo. Both No.1 and No.2.
actually i meant all i have is after #120 all his oils are fresh and not cured and comes with some bubbles of water in them but after few days open on the sun they become crystal clear give it a year to see the real beauty.
the only minus for me is there is no barn in it and what is hindi without the barn?
barn without barn, sounds familiar?
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