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The Oxymoron Of "organic " Oud.

Discussion in 'General' started by Bigboy, May 17, 2020.

  1. Mr.P

    Mr.P Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist

    First of all vendors have the right to call their stuff whatever they want and we can buy their stuff or not. I do not judge any of the vendors here for using the term organic in the context of the current situation with oud marketing. You all are just trying to compete. I would have great respect for anyone who steered away from this but it doesn’t matter because I am a tiny little player and do not buy much

    So once again: why use loaded terms like this? “Wild” and “organic” stuff that is neither wild nor organic?

    So to make up for this marketing practice, we have to invent a new word to replace “wild” now that it is being used as a synonym for cultivated and no longer means wild? This seems unnecessary.

    what do we use to mean Really and Truly Wild!? Come on - you know this is silly deep down.

    And organic.... my 2 cents/ just STOP using this word. We all know from retail marketing that this label is associated with higher costs and often harder to find items in many locations. Of course this is why that term was adopted. If we can see the hypocrisy of being forced to use a poorly enforced word in our us agricultural system, why make it worse by extending it to oud which is not actually organic by our shared understanding. What good does it serve?

    1) Origin:
    “Wild” = naturally reproduced / self seeding / wild population source, wild wood found in nature. Doesn’t exist any more? Then don’t use this term.

    “Cultivated” = planted and maintained by humans. Maybe indicate if it was a big monoculture stand or if the trees were planted in a managed forest of some kind.

    2) for cultivated wood ONLY we need to know:

    Pesticides or no?
    Chemical fertilizers or no?
    Inoculation method (drill or drill + injection)

    3) for injected cultivated trees ONLY:

    Nature of inoculant - naturally occurring substances or synthetic chemicals of any kind.

    Plantation grown, inoculated with natural substances, no spray


    Forest plantation grown, drilled only, no spray or chemical fertilizer

  2. EJayB

    EJayB True Ouddict

    I am all for more accurate description of wood source in my oils
    Taesik Yun likes this.
  3. Bigboy

    Bigboy True Ouddict

    QUOTE="EJayB, post: 58991, member: 1115"]USDA organic is a total scam, I’m an organic farmer certified as sustainable And renewable .
    That being said I can’t use many certified organic inputs as they are absolutely chemical in nature, a total salt. They can use potassium hydroxide Or chemically extracted seaweed In organic products because someone paid money to have it added to the list. My products are tested for pesticides, chemical residue, and heavy metals . That certified OG food at whole food? None is actually tested! You don’t know If the non- organic farm next door sprayed malathion that drifts over( I actually saw this with my own eyes) Or if the farm is next to the highway with dust and exhaust all over your food( seen this also) so organic is a term for people who pay to use that term but there is zero oversight on organic crops ,its all trust and paperwork. Honestly I’ll trust ASO to vet. The farms they use because they Care and I trust that. Organic is a paperwork trail no more , what the farmer does or his neighbors do is never looked at. Just what it says on the paperwork. I do a lot of paperwork and a lot of testing , the cannabis business in California is The most regulated And tested to verify cleanliness of any farm products in the world.
    So moral of the story? Know your farmer! Know your distillers![/QUOTE]

    If thats what is happening you should contact the OIGs office. They LOVE burning crooked inspectors. If you need help in this regard please let me know as i have many freinds I have made over the years in several agencies through a fraternal connection. However this just means that while under investigation said inspectors certifications should be suspended pending the outcome of the investigation.

    TruthfulIy this does not undermine or take away from the fact that the wholesale use of the term organic to describe plantation oils is misleading. We all know it. Some may care less than others. So far the ONLY people I have heard unilaterally advocate the use of the word or lack of import there of, are vendors and distillers /farmers in other related fields. While I no doubt will hand it to you i know very little about your specific industry Ejayb, while I know far from everything I have had many years of exposure to the oud industry and its inner workings to know that your lucky if your farmer/distiller does not use synthetic chemicals,is following ANY kind if hygienic guidelines ,is not throwing in dop, and is even putting the same wood he shows you in the cook...there is SO much distrust in this community, alot warranted, some not(i don't judge prices because everyone's cost to support a bussiness let alone a family is different). But the flagrent misuse of a word to make something sound like its something its not because it sounds better gets under my skin.

    There is nothing I'm saying here as an attack on any vendors. It is a widespread term used in the industry that is misleading and should stop. Just the a look around , ask new ouddicts that don't have this term so ingrained into their understanding of the oud world if the term mislead them.

    I would really like to hear from new ouddicts and those not involved in the industry about what they think as that is who this message is really meant for. I understand the knee jerk reaction to explain or defend @ vendors and those in related industries. However, don't you want to hear what the buyers really think?
  4. Bigboy

    Bigboy True Ouddict

    I have been known to be silly deep.
    They can do what they want but I think its best they listen to the buyers opinions. Maybe im wrong‍♂️

    Stop useing organic to make a plantation product sound better. That's all I am asking. Call things what they are. Wild or plantation. All this extra its wild, sort of, its kind if organic, but not really....it just seems like unessesary marketing to a group who in large part were looking to steer away from certain practices...again maybe I'm just a total idiot babbling about pointless arguments. Entirely possible. I mean no ill will and have nothing but love and respect for anyone who rolls the dice on a risky amd unpredictable investment like being an oud artisan so if i sound like a hostile d!ck that is NOT my intention. Im actually putting this out there for the vendors benefit I tend to be very vocal and outspoken about things, and to be fair a few others have shared if not exact, they have shared similar feelings. Alot of our members are very reserved.....just think if a few share feelings like this then there are plenty of others who remain silent that share the sentiment.

    Again my intentions here are ONLY to benifit us all. ALL as in including vendors.
    Last edited: May 21, 2020 at 6:14 PM
  5. EJayB

    EJayB True Ouddict

    I don’t know if you read what I wrote?
    There aren’t crooked inspectors, there is no over site , no testing no msgs on your organic egg. Organic is an over used term that honestly is a sales tactic that has lost its meaning to anyone who knows . Trust in your distillery or farmer is the point.
    Rai Munir and Taesik Yun like this.
  6. Bigboy

    Bigboy True Ouddict

    Brother do you think I would put all that effort into writing all of that just to hear myself talk? Of course I value and read everything you write.
    It's just as a government employee myself I chose not to respond because A. I neither want to steer this discussion towards an argument about what the government does or does not do, nor do I want to detract to from the purpose of this thread which was to echo the sentiment of what many ouddicts feel but few will say: that the term organic is misleading and serves no purpose but marketing hype. Perhaps your totally correct ‍♂️, but just because something is done incorrectly in one place does not mean it is okay or acceptable to do in another. Especially in our community where as you accurately point out : trust is everything. Anything that does not work to that end and can in fact undermine that trust in any regard in neither healthy for the community nor the vendor. But agiain. Maybe I am just beating a drum nobody cares to hear.

    So just to be clear the enclosed screen shot is an outright lie by the USDA and the organic stickers on my fruits and vegetables S well as the numeric code on my eggs with a zero in the spot indicating organic are all a farce? I mean its hard to belive but I will further investigate with the other members of my family who work for that agency as inspectors. In fact one of them works in some sort of integrity compliance so I will find out.

    Again , EJAYB , ASO and F4R1d0uX I am very greatful for your feedback and respect your perspectives and efforts towards clarification whether we agree or diverge on opinions.....but would love to hear more from buyers that are not part of or connected to the oud/eo industry to share their feelings.
    Last edited: May 21, 2020 at 9:26 PM
  7. EJayB

    EJayB True Ouddict

    I am not saying it’s all a farce, I’d say most organic farmers really care, but my blueberry growing neighbor would crop spray with his tractor so much chemicals that one year it fried All the blueberries! The certified organic farm across the street Took a big dose but they don’t test your OG food crops after they are grown that’s not how it works. I eat organic food 100% and it’s local not commercial organic. Again as in my consciences is it’s a trust thing . In our oud community we trust certain vendors to have a love of oud greater then the love of $. Know your farmer , know your distiller!
    Imran297 likes this.
  8. Mr.P

    Mr.P Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist

    And vendors - know your customers! Steer away from grandiose exaggerations and avoid misuse of words just to make a sale. If you use words with truth and accuracy then your customers will come to trust you and rely on you and know that when you say something it actually means what the words say.

    Not aimed at ANY specific vendor here.
    Hakim, Tarik, EJayB and 1 other person like this.
  9. EJayB

    EJayB True Ouddict

    You are 100% on point MrP.
    Tarik likes this.
  10. Al Shareef Oudh

    Al Shareef Oudh Resident Artisan

    I think it is a fairly accusative assumption to assume that the term organic is used for economical gain. There maybe people who do so, but that is with anything, there are always going to be those who take the piss. However just because of the bad apples do we throw the whole apple cart out? Absolutely not, the issue i see here is oudh is being treated like the 'Organic' Avocado from the local grocer. As @EJayB has rightfully pointed out, there is more fake organic in your local grocery store than there is with the vendors who use the term organic. As such there needs to be some level of balance in how the gripe is put forward, i can totally understand if you @Bigboy are a stickler for the term and dont like it because you know in other industries there is abuse of the term, if that is the case then we can agree to disagree.

    However to say the term should not be used , for lack of a replacement term (we are all for it if there comes to be a industry wide replacement term that covers what we do), to define the hard work put in by some of us over long years to establish the closest thing to organic certification process in the oudh industry, then i could not disagree more with you. I disagree with you based on the technical standards for organic, and I disagree with you strongly on principle. Let me explain, by using the term organic we are not aiming at anything more than acknowledging the very stringent process we follow in the life cycle of that oudh from seed to oil. These stringent standards are very much similar to what we know here(Australia) as organic. From a price perspective, our organic oils are the lowest priced offerings in our inventory, so it isnt for the financial gain. We also know technically that when growers who followed our requirements vs those who didnt, the oil we get from the woods after using the same parameters to distill them is day and night different in quality, so we know our standards bare fruit. Would we mind if it was called Sustainable Oudh instead, or Natures Oudh or another term that we all agree on that covers those very steps as outlined above in our previous post, no, we would wholeheartedly embrace a new term. As we are well aware of the negative connotations that the term organic carries.

    I even noted @Ouddict laugh at none certified organic, and that is because if you go out to the country side where people really do grow things the good old way , you can see and check the produce yourself before buying it, you know it is organic, yet it has no sticker from USADA, or NOP, Or EUOrganic etc but if you ask the grower/ farm whether it is organic, The grower will tell you, yes it is organic. The term is not limited to the certification.

    We would be naive to ignore the hand of the big corps in hijacking these words, the big corps have infiltrated the certification bodies to get their chemicals onto the lists, far from true organic. In summary, absolutely a brilliant idea to come up with a replacement term that is free from all the negative luggage that the term organic carries from outside the oudh industry. AND I dont believe any of the vendors on ouddict use the term to scrape a few more dollars, most if not all, the organic oils are priced the lowest in our respective inventories. Whilst the distillation effort is more, managing the process is more time, etc.
    Last edited: May 22, 2020 at 4:55 PM
    Taesik Yun, Andrew Salkin and EJayB like this.
  11. Ouddict

    Ouddict Forum Co-Founder & Tech Support

    This thread is getting out of hand and until it is clear that the discussion is cordial and civilised, it’s locked for now.
    Andrew Salkin likes this.
  12. Ouddict

    Ouddict Forum Co-Founder & Tech Support

    Right. Now unlocked. Please keep the discussion cordial and to the topic, thanks.
  13. Mr.P

    Mr.P Evoloudtionary Bioudlogist

    In the end we will have to either trust the people we buy from or not because clearly certification won’t happen, and we won’t be able to verify anything anyway. I think enjoying oud oil comes down to (among other things) living comfortably with uncertainty.
    Rai Munir and EJayB like this.
  14. Rai Munir

    Rai Munir Musk Man

    Trust is all. Otherwise, I, who belong to non-oud area, would always remain devoid of this much Oud. Terminologies are part and parcel of all businesses. Oud business is no exception. All vendors are really doing miracles sometimes.
    The community we have developed here, Ouddict, is to assess the quality of oils one offers, and terminologies are somehow or other defined unanimously. A little bit difference in opinions is inevitable as it is in the very scheme of life.

    Wild, organic, cultivated, biodynamic, etc., all are welcomed with open hearts and all are meaningful to all.

    Eid Mubarak to all.
    Last edited: May 24, 2020 at 10:52 AM
    EJayB likes this.
  15. zeedubbya

    zeedubbya Whats this Oud About?

    I had a lengthy essay from a Newbies perspective all drafted up and saved, but the thread being locked deleted it I think. The basics of what I was going to say was—I think a lot of newbies are drawn into Oud with the term organic and seeing them being reasonably priced. It’s fair to assume that people new to Oud (at least in the West) see the term organic and believe it to be some sort of stricter QC standard. My previous experience was to be trained that Oud is skanky, barney, cheesy etc, (probably perpetuated by the chemical companies) BUT I fell into the idea of buying a “pretty” organic Oud from someone trustworthy who is also selling them for a cheaper price. Wow. What a beautiful notion that was. Until Wild Oud came along and wrecked that dream forever and proceeded to empty my bank account. So on one hand, it’s a bit deceiving but on the other if it brings in more people who wouldn’t normally dip their toes in this pool then the ends probably justify the means....maybe...

    Every term I have see evokes a different response in my mind.

    Plantation—the image of a Singapore gazillionaire slowly gazing upon a field of saplings in Thailand being tended to by underpaid people in funny little hats.

    Cultivated—The image of someone like Russian Adam rabidly digging up old trees with a giant earth moving machine and cackling the whole time.

    Organic—The image of higher quality standards being applied by some fat expat white dudes (also in funny looking hats) with their Vietnamese, hippy dressed wife by their side looking on in appreciation. ***Oh and apparently the term is used to also signify the search results in a search engine that aren’t paid for by someone. A guy with a man bun smoking a pipe in a webinar told me that! Take a gander at the “organic” google results for “organic Oud”.....methinks someone has an SEO/SEM team working for them likely. It also has an antiquated meaning of “instrumental”....ponder that for a min...

    Just a noobs perspective with no ill intent toward any vendors, I have massive respect for what you all do.... @Bigboy asked for it so here it is.

    Peace all, back to my Agar Aura Pursat 4k—what an amazing oil!
    EJayB likes this.
  16. Bigboy

    Bigboy True Ouddict

    I am very greatful to hear feedback from one of our more recent members. Yours is perhaps the most important and relivent as it demonstrates a perspective that was long forgotten by many of us who have been involved in the world of oud for many years or perhaps an entire lifetime. I can see the benifit in having a less expensive option to introduce potential new buyers to the world of oud. As you so aptly pointed out though , nearly everyone sees the phase orgamic and thinks higher quality control and perhaps a healthier and superior product and when they find out its not an indication of either , or is even organic at all, they feel mislead.

    Just a note to those reading this , I not once went after any vendors either individually or as a group and made that crystal clear from the start that this was an attempt to see if others felt the same way and what we could do to resolve this.

    One idea is to provide a very basic key along with an alpha numeric product number like

    W6SK= wild, aged 6 years , sinking grade
    PB20AAA=plantation , biological based compound used to induce infection, aged 29 years AAA grade
    PD9 plantation, drilled , aged 9 years
    Also you could use WD = wild but drilled to induce infection and PN=plantation but naturally occurring infection, etc.
    Im not saying use this exactly because (deep breath) there are terms regarding grading that differ from one region to another and even between counties at times. Just a rubric , or a rough draft, to give an idea akin to what MR.P had alluded . Yes you should trust anyone you give large sums of money too...the more reason they give you to trust them the more comfortable people, especially newer buyers , will feel.

    I know it's hard to accept that changes can sometimes be better,let alone to find the motivation to implement them. I strongly belive dropping the use of this word, while perhaps not revolutionary, would be a step in the right direction. Having a universally accepted definition base and an accurate standardization of terms will only further garner confidence and results in more buyer activity.

Promote Oud!