Rezwan

Kōdō Aesthetic
Does the word “clean” have some kind of definition I’m not aware of? is this just the usual ensar bullshit?
It's the fractioned oud's that are defined as "new-gens" Ensar said, that's what he meant by "all clean-smelling ouds" But I don't know what to say about that, because I don't think "fractioned oud's" are all soaked in acid. The term "all clean-smelling" is so broad that it confused everyone. Some believed Ensar meant oud's that smelt "clean" and others thought it was the distiller's/artisan's selling oud's on Etsy or such. So Ensar cleared it up saying that it was certain artisan's selling fractioned oud's, which he believes is unethical. But I'm against the message myself, because everyone has their preferences and choice, and Ensar's message had a negative connotation. Are all fractioned or clean smelling oud's soaked in acid? I don't think so 😉
 

EJayB

True Ouddict
It's the fractioned oud's that are defined as "new-gens" Ensar said, that's what he meant by "all clean-smelling ouds" But I don't know what to say about that, because I don't think "fractioned oud's" are all soaked in acid. The term "all clean-smelling" is so broad that it confused everyone. Some believed Ensar meant oud's that smelt "clean" and others thought it was the distiller's/artisan's selling oud's on Etsy or such. So Ensar cleared it up saying that it was certain artisan's selling fractioned oud's, which he believes is unethical. But I'm against the message myself, because everyone has their preferences and choice, and Ensar's message had a negative connotation. Are all fractioned or clean smelling oud's soaked in acid? I don't think so 😉
I think clean references an oil that has no vices or off scents from things like:
1)Burnt wood ( lack of stirring the pot)
2) Uncontrolled Fermentation of the wood
3) lactic acid soak ( increases yield)
4) running the pot to hot even with stirring
5) letting oil return to the pot only to be
redistilled over and over ( super bad )
6) poor water quality used
7) proper cleaning of the pot between runs!!!

New gen distillers develop personal ways to overcome traditional shortcomings with equipment modifications and techniques
That will often leave a fingerprint of that distillers work that is recognizable.
New gen distillers take longer and go slower than commercial distillers, focus more on each aspect of the process
 

Rezwan

Kōdō Aesthetic
I think clean references an oil that has no vices or off scents from things like:
1)Burnt wood ( lack of stirring the pot)
2) Uncontrolled Fermentation of the wood
3) lactic acid soak ( increases yield)
4) running the pot to hot even with stirring
5) letting oil return to the pot only to be
redistilled over and over ( super bad )
6) poor water quality used
7) proper cleaning of the pot between runs!!!

New gen distillers develop personal ways to overcome traditional shortcomings with equipment modifications and techniques
That will often leave a fingerprint of that distillers work that is recognizable.
New gen distillers take longer and go slower than commercial distillers, focus more on each aspect of the process
That's amazing! But what Ensar meant was "new-gen" or "clean-smelling" ouds as a new methodology of distillation philosophy shared by certain distiller's which consists of: acid-soaking, forced-oxidation, and double-distillation.

Ensar also said that what he was meaning by "all clean-smelling" oud's are "fractioned oud's" which can be modified to smell a certain way, and is not a natural process.
 

Andrew Salkin

it's aboud time!
Staff member
It's the fractioned oud's that are defined as "new-gens" Ensar said, that's what he meant by "all clean-smelling ouds" But I don't know what to say about that, because I don't think "fractioned oud's" are all soaked in acid. The term "all clean-smelling" is so broad that it confused everyone. Some believed Ensar meant oud's that smelt "clean" and others thought it was the distiller's/artisan's selling oud's on Etsy or such. So Ensar cleared it up saying that it was certain artisan's selling fractioned oud's, which he believes is unethical. But I'm against the message myself, because everyone has their preferences and choice, and Ensar's message had a negative connotation. Are all fractioned or clean smelling oud's soaked in acid? I don't think so 😉

I also think ensar has this dramatic way of marketing that's super condescending. He makes it seem like there's some "issue" or big secret that only he knows, and he's doing everyone a huge solid by revealing it. Maybe being on ouddict, surrounded by folks who are knowledgeable consumers, screwers my perception of the market. But did anyone really not already understand there was a difference between c02/solvent extracts and hydrodistills oils? Is there a big portion of his customer base that was like - wow, who knew!?

The irony of providing everyone with this "education" and in the same breath marketing a c02 oil...
 

EJayB

True Ouddict
Not many people fractionally distill the oud oil, that would be a separate process totally done after the material distillation and under extreme vacuum in either a mechanical distillation ( thin film) or short path distillation Or even occasionally in a microwave distillation setup
Theses procedures would be done in the hope of getting higher quality from lower quality oil
But clean oils are not in my opinion references to these things but to oils distilled with modern controls. To make a point and others can chime in:
I recently did an experiment with farmed wood from Thailand as I’m sourcing for large scale projects and looking for wood by the cargo container full😎
With modern techniques and personal mixing of multiple techniques and procedures under normal conditions was able to produce an amazing oil without fancy tricks but mixed traditional methods. I could have made a great story and made great profit but instead just applied my standard margins. Too be clear the wood was farmed and about $30 a kg with delivery and proper cites paperwork
Check out the reviews of that oil
 

zahir

Ouducation Student
Not many people fractionally distill the oud oil, that would be a separate process totally done after the material distillation and under extreme vacuum in either a mechanical distillation ( thin film) or short path distillation Or even occasionally in a microwave distillation setup
Theses procedures would be done in the hope of getting higher quality from lower quality oil
But clean oils are not in my opinion references to these things but to oils distilled with modern controls. To make a point and others can chime in:
I recently did an experiment with farmed wood from Thailand as I’m sourcing for large scale projects and looking for wood by the cargo container full😎
With modern techniques and personal mixing of multiple techniques and procedures under normal conditions was able to produce an amazing oil without fancy tricks but mixed traditional methods. I could have made a great story and made great profit but instead just applied my standard margins. Too be clear the wood was farmed and about $30 a kg with delivery and proper cites paperwork
Check out the reviews of that oil
30 a kilo with everything included 😳😳
 

zahir

Ouducation Student
That's amazing! But what Ensar meant was "new-gen" or "clean-smelling" ouds as a new methodology of distillation philosophy shared by certain distiller's which consists of: acid-soaking, forced-oxidation, and double-distillation.

Ensar also said that what he was meaning by "all clean-smelling" oud's are "fractioned oud's" which can be modified to smell a certain way, and is not a natural process.
Distillers themselves would be in the best position to debunk such claims. But I personally don't know if "clean oils" are truly soaked in lactic acid, fractionated, etc or not. And I would hope that other distillers would chime in as well. Maybe even start a thread on this entire topic. But I certainly disagree that clean oils are fractionated and thus not natural because you can certainly have a clean oil which is also "full spectrum". Perhaps he was referring specifically to clean oils that lack the base notes.
 

EJayB

True Ouddict
30 a kilo with everything included 😳😳
Yes , shipping and cash transfer included
The farm sent me many samples of what they could do with the same wood but they were not good oud and I was very concerned when I received the package that it would be waste of time using the wood. But I tried a few new ideas on ways to collect the steam at different temps by using longer or shorter steam pathways and different cooling temps and I honestly juiced that wood a bunch of different ways and in the end the oil I sold contained 100% of everything that came out of the pot. Now the cure process is a whole other conversation of techniques 😎
 

Al Shareef Oudh

Master Perfumer
There is one valid point he is making and that is; selling different pulls of the oil is not the whole oil or representation of the wood. Imagine you get cow's milk and you sell the whey, Creame, and Cheese each separately and call each one milk.

Selling different pulls of the oil is a bit like selling whey and calling it milk, or Creame and calling it milk, or cheese and calling it milk.

Having got that out of the way, as I have said before and it's good to see others are now catching along, the term fractioning is misused in the online Oudh world by both vendors and customers, except a few. Collecting oils at different times in the distillation process is not fractioning.

As @Andrew Salkin has said the rest of what is being said is simply marketing, the content of it is directed at those who are calling their oils clean, it is trying to discredit their process, create a bit of drama, get some more attention.

I remember few years back when it was fancy to use bottled water for distillation, I wrote about how distillation cleans water, what is interesting and fairly basic, the distillation process itself is also a type of filtering process. In survival training one learns that if the water is very dirty or polluted cover it with a plastic or something that will allow the steam to condense and drink the water that rises as steam.

I guess at the end of the day customers also have an obligation to themselves to question what is put Infront of them as 'knowledge'. Knowledge is power and the minute the customer acquires proper knowledge and not marketing fluff they will then make educated choices regarding these matters.

One of the issues with the whole clean smelling oil conversation is that there is a assumption wrapped in it that if it isn't clean smelling then somehow it is lacking, inferior or contaminated with auxiliary elements. That proposition itself is problematic.

It is problematic because it is creating the mindset that heavy oudhs are somehow contaminated with auxiliary elements. Then to support that the people who claim that will then start making claims about soaking and barn and associate barn with fermentation etc.

Whilst in reality, there are oudhs that without soaking will give you barn, there are oudhs with soaking will smell ethereal and top heavy 'clean', using @EJayB s Thai plantation wood example, If you soak Thai plantation wood for 2 weeks it will give a much more 'clean' ethereal Oudh oil then if you didn't soak it, without a soak it smells waxy even gasy.

Oudh without much effort can provide an array of different smells from outright barn to ethereal and more clean than Vicks. I put the blame of the misinformation on enthusiastic vendors who would start writing with conclusive claims in their first couple of years of distillation and they hadn't come across enough situations to experience a lot of the possibilities. Today the content of those blogs, posts etc are for many foundations of how they see oudh oils. If customers have consumed those contents then There is a lot the consumer needs to undo before reaching the reality in some of these matters.
 

Rezwan

Kōdō Aesthetic
There is one valid point he is making and that is; selling different pulls of the oil is not the whole oil or representation of the wood. Imagine you get cow's milk and you sell the whey, Creame, and Cheese each separately and call each one milk.

Selling different pulls of the oil is a bit like selling whey and calling it milk, or Creame and calling it milk, or cheese and calling it milk.

Having got that out of the way, as I have said before and it's good to see others are now catching along, the term fractioning is misused in the online Oudh world by both vendors and customers, except a few. Collecting oils at different times in the distillation process is not fractioning.

As @Andrew Salkin has said the rest of what is being said is simply marketing, the content of it is directed at those who are calling their oils clean, it is trying to discredit their process, create a bit of drama, get some more attention.

I remember few years back when it was fancy to use bottled water for distillation, I wrote about how distillation cleans water, what is interesting and fairly basic, the distillation process itself is also a type of filtering process. In survival training one learns that if the water is very dirty or polluted cover it with a plastic or something that will allow the steam to condense and drink the water that rises as steam.

I guess at the end of the day customers also have an obligation to themselves to question what is put Infront of them as 'knowledge'. Knowledge is power and the minute the customer acquires proper knowledge and not marketing fluff they will then make educated choices regarding these matters.

One of the issues with the whole clean smelling oil conversation is that there is a assumption wrapped in it that if it isn't clean smelling then somehow it is lacking, inferior or contaminated with auxiliary elements. That proposition itself is problematic.

It is problematic because it is creating the mindset that heavy oudhs are somehow contaminated with auxiliary elements. Then to support that the people who claim that will then start making claims about soaking and barn and associate barn with fermentation etc.

Whilst in reality, there are oudhs that without soaking will give you barn, there are oudhs with soaking will smell ethereal and top heavy 'clean', using @EJayB s Thai plantation wood example, If you soak Thai plantation wood for 2 weeks it will give a much more 'clean' ethereal Oudh oil then if you didn't soak it, without a soak it smells waxy even gasy.

Oudh without much effort can provide an array of different smells from outright barn to ethereal and more clean than Vicks. I put the blame of the misinformation on enthusiastic vendors who would start writing with conclusive claims in their first couple of years of distillation and they hadn't come across enough situations to experience a lot of the possibilities. Today the content of those blogs, posts etc are for many foundations of how they see oudh oils. If customers have consumed those contents then There is a lot the consumer needs to undo before reaching the reality in some of these matters.
Very much informative, and it really makes you think how we as consumer's are unaware of many factor's when it comes to the art of distillation. Thank you very much brother for educating us. 🙏🙂
 

Mr.P

oud<3er
Grandawood sampler arrived today. 3 CO2 oils.

Wild sinensis
Cultivated sinensis
“Peated” sinensis

The wild and peated ouds are finer in scent, more akin to distillates and more expensive. The cultivated co2 oil is very different - dense, waxy, sweet, gentle, but not like a distilled oud.

The “peated” oud has been fermented in a way that it reminds me of oriscent “China exclusive” in terms of that rich mulchy peat moss and tangy rich soil vibe. It settles quite differently than the oriscent oil which is more linear but feels related.

The wild co2 has more of the violet cucumber floral notes I have smelled in sinensis and kinam oils. Not
identical, but clearly akin to some imperial oud and other oils of this variety I have smelled over the years. It settles into a nice bitter-sweet heavy kinam heart that is very persistent especially if applied on a wrist with a watch or bracelet on it or dabbed on the beard.

The peated one smells like it had a good long soak and they got the soak just right forest floor and mulch not cheese - the tasty microbes arrived perhaps. The other smells like it was not soaked at all.
 

Mr.P

oud<3er
Revisiting these oils - the “peated oud” smells a little funkier today to my nose than it did yesterday. Maybe fermented a little bit past my personal “sweet spot”, based on my foggy understanding of the factors that impact oud.

There is this lovely tangy rich soil and peat moss scent that i really enjoy, but there is also a bit of the long soak swampmuck funk that I appreciate but wish it were less evident in the top note. I have no idea if co2 oils improve the same way distillate does but if so this oil needs maybe 5 years to settle. it almost feels like two profiles vying for attention as opposed to a singular smooth melded scent.

The sandalwood co2 oils I got 20 years ago have held up very well and mellowed/improved, so I am hopeful the same will be true for these!
 

Taesik Yun

Attar Yun
Staff member
I haven't used oud oils much lately because I find them to be hard to enjoy when my mind is too busy with racing thoughts. now I'm ready to put on some oils myself again after sorting out my thoughts.

starting oud rehab with RPP's complete oil from Nagaland study set.

this oil is one heck of incense-y oud and it reminds me of scorching Hindi chip on hot charcoal. but without cough-inducing smoke. in the drydown it reveals where it came from by exhibiting Nagaland's distinctive sour, flinting fruitiness. it's a lovely unusual oil.
 

Aleata

Oud Mood
EO Sultani 1975… splendid!
Reminds me of EO Oud Ahmad.
Those musky tones… my, oh, my!
Greetings from Geneva dear oudfellows!
 

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Aleata

Oud Mood
Today’s Oud for me is EO Oud Yaqoub.
Very sweet oil, apparently first cultivated sinking grade achieved by Ensar.
At first glance, this oil wasn’t that much interesting. But as the days passed, I discovered more and more layers. And projection amplified too.
It is a true friendly oil, that you can easily wear anywhere. Newcomers as well as veterans will be pleased!
 
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