Kyara/Kynam: IS IT REALLY OUD?

Discussion in 'Art and Science of Oud' started by Rai Munir, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. Alex

    Alex Oud Fan

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    no dear I will correct you again, please read the full post and my detailed reply to each, his "observations that your GCMS was not consistent with that of Kinam" is simply his own personal opinion and we respect that but, that's his personal opinion and it's obviously not coming from someone who is experienced with kinam or lab work as I have clarified to him from the many inaccuracies and mistakes that he mentioned and I corrected . I have explained who done this test, when, where, by who and after what procedure and testing it was made

    again dear, I will repeat what I have said previously, the "GCMS of Kyara/Kinam on respected Kyarazen's website"
    who done it ?
    where is the lab ?
    where is the reference number and authentication number ?
    who signed it and authenticated it ?
    it was done on oil and not wood, what kind of oil, how it was extracted and by who ?
    what kind of reference or official scientific evidence this was compared to and where is that reference?

    (kindly keep in mind that all the following point are available and present in the lab test that I have presented, which again been done in a major USA lab, after a dozen of check, tests and references it was done by a professional certified lab technician, authenticated by a PHD in chemistry, checked by a certified botanist and, confirmed by Ali Attar, finally I have gave the exact line and reference on the constituents that was presented in the lab test from the most dependable and respectful academic, scientific books and researches) so if anyone wanted to look serious or like someone who knows what he is talking about he should present an evidence that is comparable or similar to what I have presented here, as with all do respect a few picture for a lab test that has no details or information or reference for a totally different material (oil and not wood) on a commercial or non academic site is the least not sufficient and I think most people will agree as a simply google search will provide you with many kinam sellers and and many lab test but how accurate and real it is, I'm presenting facts here and I know it may surprise many as I personally was surprised to know that most people on this forum or post where totally oblivious to the fact that all current kinam in the market is cultivated and some gentleman respectfully mentioned that he read on the same site that you mentioned that there is absolutely no cultivated kinam and that is (absolutely wrong).

    finally if we want to be objective, accurate and real and talk in a scientific way and not just oppose, argue, or through random sites on each other we need to agree on the basic fundamental protocol and procedures for testing and taking a test or any kind of document seriously. with out that we are just making noise. with all do respect and appreciation to everyone here that presented very good valid points and argued in a very professional and academic way.
    regards
     
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  2. Alex

    Alex Oud Fan

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    correct dear, but in the same time a fact is a fact and lab test doesn't lie that's why I have made an open challenge to all and every kianm seller or company to make and present lab test for their products just like we did, and yet I have heard or seen anyone doing that.
    thank you for presenting this it's truly a very "liberal world we are living in when it comes to such words and descriptions".
     
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  3. Ouddict

    Ouddict Forum Co-Founder & Tech Support

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    You may be correct Alex, but knowing Kyara Zen, at this point in time, I would take his word on that GCMS 100%.

    That is not to negate your claims. I haven’t really looked into them.
     
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  4. Rai Munir

    Rai Munir Musk Man

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    :Roflmao:

    Waitin please! Next description you will come across:

    Ba, ba, black sheep,
    "Have you any Qi-nan?"
    Yes, sir, yes, sir! THREE BAGS- TONNNNNNNNNN!

    But rhymes sound sweet, alas!
     
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  5. Mr.P

    Mr.P True Ouddict

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    Agreed. As far as I can tell, kyarazen is a true scholar and his word is not one I would lightly dismiss. My opinion on this is irrelevant of course, time will tell (I hope) which of these is accurate. Somebody’s either confused or being misleading


    One thing is absolutely clear: among the general population, the experts who share their thoughts online, and vendors there is an lack of consistency and agreement as to the actual meaning of Kinam, kyara, and how these are similar to or different from high grade sinensis wood. I choose to believe that most just haven’t had enough practical experience, and aren’t being deliberately misleading.

    I think the general idea here is to be encouraging to anybody who has technical information to share. So while I am skeptical, I greatly appreciate Alex taking the time to share his findings, regardless of whether they concur with those of others. I would love to read a debate here between whatever experts we can find on the topic!
     
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  6. Alex

    Alex Oud Fan

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    I appreciate that, and I totally respect your opinion and thoughts and I'm sure it's coming from experience and knowledge and you are totally free to believe what you like or follow what you like, with that been said still the GC lab was not done by the person or the site itself but copied from some "Chinese magazine" that's what is stated on the site itself, and it still doesn't provide a reference or any of the solid academic and scientific criteria that I mentioned which applies to anyone and everyone when talking about scientific evidence and lab tests . so maybe out of previous knowledge, trust or work you would totally trust the site or the person and that is totally fine, but with all do respect that doesn't make it scientifically or academically solid specially against a lab test like the one I have provided which has
    1- total test with findings and results and not partial
    2- done in a major USA lab with reference number and authentication
    3- done by a certified lab technician who provided his name and contacts
    4- signed and authenticated by a PHD in chemistry
    5- authenticated by botanist
    6- approved by Ali Attar who's a master perfumist and owner of a house that's been in this field for many years.
    7- and finally the test was done on an oil and not wood and we dont even know the way of extraction !
     
  7. Mr.P

    Mr.P True Ouddict

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    Ok. So what do we make of a single lab test of a sample of kinam? What can we learn from it?

    Can anyone here look that over and maybe distill a point or two that someone without a degree in biochemistry could use to judge whether other gcms reports are for true kinam versus... (?)

    For me, seeing a gcms posted for a particular sample is a piece of data, but knowing what key points within the data are useful is another thing entirely. For sandalwood for example I know to look for alpha and beta santalol, and to get a sense for total santalol content. So on this level, the gcms is a little useful to me. What about the kyara (or wait - we are not talking about kyara but instead kinam) gcms?


    By the way is it possible that generic kinam is being cultivated but true kyara can only be found in the wild? I haven’t read all of KZ’s writings in a long time but this might be one way to resolve the apparent contradiction of fact here. One consistent thing I have heard over the years is that kyara is a very specialized material while “kinam” includes a wider range of more general materials. I think the idea is that Kyara is a special type of kinam from very old trees, etc.. One thing I’ve also heard for a long time is that the wild kyara has dried up. So it is possible that kyara is only wild, but is gone, and what we have that is newly produced / sourced is essentially all cultivated sinensis that is somehow tweaked to give soft dense resin of the kinam kind.

    Any chance this wild speculation is remotely close to the truth? How could one find out??
     
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  8. Alex

    Alex Oud Fan

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    dear Mr. P thank you for the objective reply, I personally respect and appreciate everyone who is experienced or has been working in this field. but the information I shared are not my personal findings or opinion as many other post and articles are. what I shared is a scientifically solid and academically accepted lab test and information form the most respected scientific and academic researches and books on this subject, proves and pictures of Kinam frames (plantations) that is considered one o the largest in that country (Vietnam) which we have dealt with. I merely mentioned anything that is my opinion or my thoughts, said that I agree or disagree with anyone all I did is provide facts and evidence which I believe many people on this forum didn't know about. keep in mind I have absolutely no reason or benefit to say that all kinam in market is cultivated which no other house or company is saying it would be much more profitable to list a kinam wood or oil and simply don't say anything misleading the people and the buyers to believe that it is wild (it's not and nothing will change that fact). this is the truth and I know I will get lots of hate and heat for it because until few weeks ago I had many clients and customers asking about the kianm they bought from some places or companies for thousands of dollars and they were told it's 100% wild funny enough it was made and extracted from the same or identical kind of kinam farm that we deal with the price that was listed or sold to those poor people (poor not in money but being unfortunate and misled) was about 10 times or more that what it actually cost. so yes I would love to have kianm experts and people who really worked in this field, sold and bought kinam, seen the farms themselves have an objective, real educated conversation here and it will be very simple and easy for everyone to see if there is any real kinam (wild or it's all cultivated). fun fact a Japanese company offered a local monetary 20 million dollars after many attempts to pay the local law enforcement and people in that areas to cut a tree that has couple kilos of wild kinam. they personally offer us 24 million if we can get it, ofcource this is illegal and we won't attempt anything like that. keep in mind that this is a company not buyer this means after this kinam is cut and cleaned it will be sold for at lest double the price this is 40 plus million dollar. they didn't succeed the tree is still standing there! so keep that in mind next time someone through the wild kinam word.
    regards and respect to all
     
  9. Alex

    Alex Oud Fan

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    kinam is kayara the word is used interchangeably, reading the agarwood book of dr. Rozi and the few other scientific evidence will explain all the questions you mentioned and asked and it is solid scientific work.
     
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  10. Joe King

    Joe King AttitOud

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    Just one question :confused: you provided a piece of wood for testing, who has verified that the wood was kinam/kyara ?
    I would imagine you would need to verify this first with a known independent expert other wise the whole thing is a sham.
     
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  11. VPhong

    VPhong Oud Tea

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    Hello Rai Munir,

    Long time, I hope you are well. It was all a bit of fun :Laugh:

    That was my Big Bang effect and list of reminders on kynam. The excitement and awe that the words Kynam/Kyara/Qi Nan can trigger in many of us makes it something we need to be especially mindful of. It is a powerful effect that often marketers will seek to trigger and exploit in us. Furthermore we should not forget how marketing is very apt at selectively SHOWING and HIDING information.

    My first passion has always been my old tea collection. I did collect some old pieces of Vietnamese wood along the way but never really got around to buying into any Qi-nan. I have experienced the green oil Kyara from Kyara Zen amongst others. The appreciation of tea and oud often goes hand in hand in Chinese culture and collectors and enthusiasts of one will often tend to also dabble with the other.
     
  12. VPhong

    VPhong Oud Tea

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    I applaud that you emphasize the need to push for more solid authenticated/certifiable information but I am seeing in your posts rather a lot of vague information and showy statistics. It comes across more as a marketing pitch than an attempt for any authentication especially when respected member's questions remain unanswered @powdernose @Joe King

    The lab test you presented is definitely a step in the right direction in an industry fraught with scams but unfortunately your lab results raises more questions than answers. Frankly with all the information you have presented I really hoped to have felt a sense of reassurance but that has not been the case unfortunately.
     
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  13. Alex

    Alex Oud Fan

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    Dear I'm not sure if you really don't get it or I miss explained. so the wood itself "kinam" been documented and studied by many not sure if you know that. or read the previous posts. Read the references I provided and what was the different between the different kinds of wood and what is called kinam
    so when you pick a piece of wood and you test it if it's consistent with the scientific and academic findings that it contains the constituents and properties that's of kinam then it's kinam if it's not then it's not kinam. it's very simple. additionally experts are self proclaimed lab test are not !
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  14. Alex

    Alex Oud Fan

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    dear, I presented lab test, and multiple references from the most scientific and academic resources. if that it Vauge or showy to you then I'm not sure what would be clear or humble. if you think I mentioned anything vague or shows please list it below. there is nothing to market dear we are not collaborated or associated with any company farm or vendor we are not advertising a site that sell or promote kinam, I'm not saying that I have wild kinam like others are saying or saying that I can get wild kinam on the contrary I'm saying don't buy into the hype I'm educating and spreading awareness. to the best of my knowledge I have answered all the questions and provided all proof but If I missed anything from anyone please excuse me and please write the questions in an objective way in details and I will answer it one by one in details. I'm not the world's best expert in kinam nor I'm a chemist but most of the questions I got where more of an argument rather than a questions and it was not based on any scientific or academic proof. I based my answers on solid scientific evidence and not some, random article on a "respectful site" or a copy or lab test from undocumented not referenced test. and I will always be here to answer any questions and address any matter not because I need or want to sell you or try to sell you anything. "all our work in kinam been for private clients we don't even take or accept any new ones". but because we are tired and feeling bad about all the people getting tricked and lie to by some companies and some sellers that are promoting what they call "wild kinam".
    my best regards
     
  15. Alex

    Alex Oud Fan

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  16. Joe King

    Joe King AttitOud

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    I understand what kinam is. I have read the references you provided and they did nothing to confirm your claims.
    You have not shown a baseline study of kinam that correlates with the piece of wood you provided for testing.
    Also the following issues raised by Ouddict and Powdernose have not been properly answered/addressed.
    Until they are and you can show the wood you used for testing matches a known piece of kinam it all just appears to be an attempt to pull the wool over peoples eyes and bambozzle them with lots of words. The wood you supplied for testing could have been a very low grade of agarwood....

    Ouddict-
    "You do realise that the lab test - although interesting - does not have much value until it is baselined against a known signature test result right? "
    "Sure, what you have done is great - you have sent a sample of 'kinam' to a lab who have conducted a GCMS test on it. Nowhere in that test does the lab confirm that it is kinam - they simply cannot do that, unless they have a reference signature from a known/verified library and compare it to confirm."
    Powdernose-
    "Thanks for posting your result.
    What precisely did you test?"
    "I looked through your posted references, I don't think I saw a single common component.
    Am I missing something?"

    Alex said:
    I wasn't talking about any wild kinam to start talking about cultivated kinam, I'm talking about cultivated kinam from the beginning

    Powdernose-At no point was this clear!
    This is how you presented your report:

    Alex said:
    FYI for anyone who's interested in knowing what a Kyara/kinam GC analysis looks like, here it is from The Perfumist

    Powdernose-I also asked point blank what precisely you tested and your reply was:
    "Kinam, kinam, kinam"

    Both statements are misleading.

    Alex said:
    6- Santalol, cis,α- (reference Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 page 5)

    Powdernose-Yes, you've managed a single match, in your test that component is at 0.01%...

    Alex said:
    7- 2-Butanone, 4-phenyl- (reference Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 page 7)

    Powdernose-That is not a component found in the kyara study you reference:
    https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/23/11/2969/htm#B21-molecules-23-02969
    rather it is mentioned in the study but the actual reference is this one:
    https://www.researchgate.net/file.P...fe6&assetKey=AS:395028015927297@1471193426523
    which is with regard to regular agarwood not kynam.

    Alex said:
    8- 1H,5H-Pyrazolo[1,2-a][1,2,4]triazole-1-thione, tetrahydro-2-phenyl-3-(3-pyridinyl)-
    4-Methoxybenzyl phenyl carbonate
    4-Amino-5-(5-amino-4 phenyl-1-pyrazolyl)methyl-2-methylpyrimidine
    4-phenyl-
    ( available on our report on 2 , 29 , 30 , 32 presenting different varieties of phenylethyl, with amino, this is used the decide the quality of agarwood and even the region distinguishing different kinds of it and I'm quoting from Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 page 11 reference (20/25) "
    chromones were identified in the incense smoke of the Kynam variety (27.23%), but not in the same of Vietnamese, Lao, or Cambodian variety. So far, 39 different 2-(2-phenylethyl) chromone derivatives have been identified in different varieties of agarwood).

    Powdernose - None of those are chromones.
    By the way, you can't just take one section of a chemical components name and make matches based on that partial name....
    Also worth noting that a GCMS of smoke will differ to a test of an acetone extract.

    And by the by, 1,2,4 triazoles are synthetic compounds
    "The 1, 2, 4-triazole ring is an ubiquitous structural feature of many synthetic compounds"
    https://japer.in/storage/models/art...8TQEaBxRIIDuC/a-review-on-1-2-4-triazoles.pdf
     
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  17. LJH

    LJH Just Arrived

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    Hi Alex, thank u for this very insightful post. I really appreciate this information it has brought some sense and awareness into me. I do understand that the farmers in certain countries had succession in utilising the grafting method to produce the acclaim green oil "kynam" , but to the extend of the last 2 picture is quite unbelievable to me. Please correct me if I am wrong, I am novice hobbyist here not an expert in any related field.

    Sent from my A1601 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  18. VPhong

    VPhong Oud Tea

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    The number of posts by respected members here asking you for additional info/clarification/supporting evidence with regards to what you have presented are testament to the vague/questionable nature of your information. Ref Post #156 @Joe King has kindly highlighted the questionable points in his post

    Well, since you asked here is my list.

    Using the word “Kinam” in a product name without clear supporting evidence – That’s SHOWY to put it kindly

    Repeatedly justifying the identity of “Kinam” in a lower grade wood and attempting to nonchalantly suppress opposing views by means of superior scientific/academic credentials through incomplete and questionable findings – DOUBLE SHOWY

    Telling stories and promoting one’s credentials to give bonus points to oneself at a time when you are being requested real viable answers - SHOWY

    Broadcasting one’s reputation as a non-profit member and community giver under questionable circumstances – Wow, to have that kind of audacity … that’s no shame, thick skin SHOWY. But I am glad to hear it and I would love to see that proven in time.
     
  19. Rai Munir

    Rai Munir Musk Man

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    The thread is: KYNAM/ KYRA- Is it really Oud?

    Since the day I started the thread, all the participants added some information. Of course, the total picture is yet to emerge.

    I wish the discussion keep continuing in a friendly atmosphere.

    This is an important piece of information for ME that Kynam/ Kyara CAN BE a cultivated one.

    Second, it is also important for ME that a GCMS can be had to know about the authenticity of Kynam/ Kyara.

    If it is wrong, what respected Alex claims that GCMS determines the quality, one ought to mention it. Putting aside what respected Alex' Kynam GCMS report says.

    My concern is just Kynam, not Alex'Kynam, and I think he himself quoted and posted the report to clarify certain points regarding Kynam.
     
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  20. VPhong

    VPhong Oud Tea

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    @Rai Munir, You are the owner of this thread and of course I respect your wishes. Points were made based on our personal impressions and by allowing things to have their natural flow of checks and balances is also a way to shuffle in order.

    @Alex, Maybe I have dealt with the Chinese market for too long so I have a tendency to be rather skeptical. Whilst we have different views I certainly don’t harbor any ill feelings. Believe me, I would dearly love to be proven wrong on this matter and perhaps in my way that was why I was pushing so hard. Don’t take these exchanges to heart.

    Sincerely,
    Varat
     
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