Rai Munir

Musk Man
due to the fact
we don't know what average Oud was back in history
My respected most Alkhadra, what I get from the the above quoted parts of the sentence is: We are in the abyss of darkness about the history of Oud; so, all is actually an existential 'leap into darkness'.
that utilize
some oils being called Kyara and Kynam
Well, I feel this word 'utilize' connotes negative meaning. Now I couldn't get whether you just referred to this action, or criticized it. Can you please mention those oils 'being called..."? For how long this word is in use/usage about Oud oils?
and I am quite sure that much of the high grade Ouds harvested long ago was probably Kyara/Kynam.
It never let me draw a definite conclusion. Please, never mind.
are many different ideas
It is like putting three periods at the end of a sentence, or writing "To be continued".
You are an Arab, so you can elaborate the place of kynam/kyara in Arab Oud Culture.
I highly respect your views, respected Alkhadra.
 

Nikhil S

Resident Reviewer
A new Oud wood was recently discovered on the Maldivian Islands. It was extremely fragrant at room temperature. A huge chunk was found floating in the sea the scientiats first believed it to be a meterorite. But on close look it was found that is was actually a fossilized piece of Kyara wood. It predates any aromatic woods discovered by man. And for convenience sake its been named "trapyra".

Well honorable ouddicts please excuse my failed attempts at sarcastic humour. However, in reality I have been testing Kyara a lot lately (Tony, KZ). This wood burns differently to begin with. Like Sandalwood it starts releasing fumes at low temp on my ceramic burner. Beautiful sweet floral smell. I dont get any bitterness that I wouldnt from agar. Its as good as some finely distilled oils. It is fun but definitely not epitome of Oud smells. Not at all. And anyone claiming that is either overstimating his personal preference or simply overstating to get attention. Sinking grade Brunei chips and rare Manipuri chuchni wood can give off a similar smell at low temp.

Infact a thickly resinated Manipuri/Imphal which will never be available in shops easily burns on 12V to 15V for close to 20mins. Anyone looking for proof can ask me. Btw I dont lie. It goes against my prnciples.

I burn and experiment with woods a lot. Yes it is definitely personal prefernce. Some may like Sri Lankan more than Viet wood etc etc. But Kyara is nice but nowhere epitome. It burns really clean is linear easy to grasp. Nothing mysterious about it.

Moreso with its claimed rarity I see its as easily available as old hindi wood. And yes dont be fooled old Hindi can be hollow but not fragile.

As for the questions, Oud to Indian masters is Hindi and Cambodi. No one knows about Kyara/Kinam from their 40 50 yrs of Oud service. Even OR 1985 was discarded in front of my eyes as swamp wood made popular for profit. The Indian Oud sellers would travel as far as Malaysia in search and sale of wood. They can tell you all about the beginning of modern Oud trade in Gulf. How the Qurashis and Ajmals established themselves etc. The traditional virus on me makes me believe them because they way I saw them interact with Oud was on another level. They wont even touch Oud it it smells any different than what they have worked with.

So Oud is that where it was born. From my personal satisfaction I would gladly spend some hardearned money for a Monkoh session in Japan to enlighten myself with the protected secret of Kyara. And I will do it for sure. As of now, Kyara is a nice smelling wood to me expensive because of its rarity and definitely not for its smell.

Lastly, I will conclude with a 100pc confidence, Oud is one of the biggest lies told by man. I was also a beginner once. I have seen the market and have had deep astounding experiences uplclose with extremely dedicted vendors who are also Oud purists since then. Glad I went deep to the core before going all guns blazing to procure every legendary oil or wood promised as holy grail. So be careful guys and take your own time with things. And ask questions to self ? Dont be convinced so easily. And if you are ready to go the extra mile.....trust me there s good stuff still available in hidden corners and you already know why ?

So grab a piece of Hindi which may still be avaiable like the one I show in the pic to tease you all...
IMG-20170925-WA0025.jpg
 
Last edited:
A new Oud wood was recently discovered on the Maldivian Islands. It was extremely fragrant at room temperature. A huge chunk was found floating in the sea the scientiats first believed it to be a meterorite. But on close look it was found that is was actually a fossilized piece of Kyara wood. It predates any aromatic woods discovered by man. And for convenience sake its been named "trapyra".

Well honorable ouddicts please excuse my failed attempts at sarcastic humour. However, in reality I have been testing Kyara a lot lately (Tony, KZ). This wood burns differently to begin with. Like Sandalwood it starts releasing fumes at low temp on my ceramic burner. Beautiful sweet floral smell. I dont get any bitterness that I wouldnt from agar. Its as good as some finely distilled oils. It is fun but definitely not epitome of Oud smells. Not at all. And anyone claiming that is either overstimating his personal preference or simply overstating to get attention. Sinking grade Brunei chips and rare Manipuri chuchni wood can give off a similar smell at low temp.

Infact a thickly resinated Manipuri/Imphal which will never be available in shops easily burns on 12V to 15V for close to 20mins. Anyone looking for proof can ask me. Btw I dont lie. It goes against my prnciples.

I burn and experiment with woods a lot. Yes it is definitely personal prefernce. Some may like Sri Lankan more than Viet wood etc etc. But Kyara is nice but nowhere epitome. It burns really clean is linear easy to grasp. Nothing mysterious about it.

Moreso with its claimed rarity I see its as easily available as old hindi wood. And yes dont be fooled old Hindi can be hollow but not fragile.

As for the questions, Oud to Indian masters is Hindi and Cambodi. No one knows about Kyara/Kinam from their 40 50 yrs of Oud service. Even OR 1985 was discarded in front of my eyes as swamp wood made popular for profit. The Indian Oud sellers would travel as far as Malaysia in search and sale of wood. They can tell you all about the beginning of modern Oud trade in Gulf. How the Qurashis and Ajmals established themselves etc. The traditional virus on me makes me believe them because they way I saw them interact with Oud was on another level. They wont even touch Oud it it smells any different than what they have worked with.

So Oud is that where it was born. From my personal satisfaction I would gladly spend some hardearned money for a Monkoh session in Japan to enlighten myself with the protected secret of Kyara. And I will do it for sure. As of now, Kyara is a nice smelling wood to me expensive because of its rarity and definitely not for its smell.

So grab a piece of Hindi which may still be avaiable like the one I show in the pic to tease you all...View attachment 1690
I'm pretty sure that I would prefer that beautiful piece of wood to Kyara. Kyara is aromatic, but not my favorite profile. What amazes me is that in India, there are so many regions, and collectively they offer a wide variety of profiles with that delicious Hindi backbone. King Arthur would have an easier time finding the Holy Grail, than I would finding the Holy Grail of Hindi Oudh:Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao:
 

Faizal_p

Sulaym.co.uk
@Nikhil S I can see your point however there is more to kyara than just a type of wood. Kyara is a scent profile attributed by the Japanese/ Chinese and is highly revered due to its uniqueness. There are subtleties to agarwood which take a lifetime of mastery which I am no where near, I still consider myself an amateur when it comes to Oud (only ten years so far).
Kodoh is an art form of listening to wood, the ceremony, the practice and sheer amount of time taken to identify and appreciate is exceptional. As someone who has a few years experience of jujitsu and kenjutsu the subtleties in movement which are not perceivable to the untrained eye make all the difference, from a novice like me to a master sensei the difference in talent is heaven and earth but a layman may perceive us to be equals...
Using the name for oils isn't doing justice to the wood itself, it's more like the Arabic names given to oil, suyufi, moataq, qadeem etc, basically a form of branding.
 

Nikhil S

Resident Reviewer
I'm pretty sure that I would prefer that beautiful piece of wood to Kyara. Kyara is aromatic, but not my favorite profile. What amazes me is that in India, there are so many regions, and collectively they offer a wide variety of profiles with that delicious Hindi backbone. King Arthur would have an easier time finding the Holy Grail, than I would finding the Holy Grail of Hindi Oudh:Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao:
You can visit me anytime. I will take you to places and show you things that will change your perception about Oud forever. And it would be worth the effort. I will show you suitcases filled with such pieces. You burn it and you will know the Agallocha goodness.
 

Nikhil S

Resident Reviewer
@Nikhil S I can see your point however there is more to kyara than just a type of wood. Kyara is a scent profile attributed by the Japanese/ Chinese and is highly revered due to its uniqueness. There are subtleties to agarwood which take a lifetime of mastery which I am no where near, I still consider myself an amateur when it comes to Oud (only ten years so far).
Kodoh is an art form of listening to wood, the ceremony, the practice and sheer amount of time taken to identify and appreciate is exceptional. As someone who has a few years experience of jujitsu and kenjutsu the subtleties in movement which are not perceivable to the untrained eye make all the difference, from a novice like me to a master sensei the difference in talent is heaven and earth but a layman may perceive us to be equals...
Using the name for oils isn't doing justice to the wood itself, it's more like the Arabic names given to oil, suyufi, moataq, qadeem etc, basically a form of branding.
I feel you brother. I love Japanese traditions but in matters of Oud no level of Jujitsu will help. There s nothing like higher cosciounesa and all those things. Yoga is the grandpa of self discipline. Yet most discoveries and inventions happened in the West. Plus in all honesty the Oud culture of India and Gulf far predates the rest.
 

Faizal_p

Sulaym.co.uk
You can visit me anytime. I will take you to places and show you things that will change your perception about Oud forever. And it would be worth the effort. I will show you suitcases filled with such pieces. You burn it and you will know the Agallocha goodness.

If curt is coming then please count me in! On a serious note, is this in Assam or collectors etc in Mumbai?
 

Nikhil S

Resident Reviewer
If curt is coming then please count me in! On a serious note, is this in Assam or collectors etc in Mumbai?
Brother it is a dangerous game here. Must come down sometime and see All things Oud upclose. No one will share these things with anyone so easily. I am really trying my best to create an awareness. And yes as honest enthusiasts of Oud I would love to meet you all and show you around. It will be fun.
 

Nikhil S

Resident Reviewer
I've had the pleasure of meeting many distillers and traders of wood, also as I couldn't get to hojai I met with some distillers in Dubai just last week. Hopefully God willing I'll be in Assam end of the year so will be a pleasure to see you there.
It will be a pleasure to meet you brother. Its getting sorta dangerous day by day. Thia North East business. Assam not ao much but the wave will catch on.
 

Rai Munir

Musk Man
@Nikhil S : That's it, man! This is no oud at all. You have burnt wood, smelt and listened to it. And I just listened to every body talking about kyara/kynam fairy tales. Well, it is rare. Agreed. No question about it. But the way it has been portrayed is nothing but a nostalgia of perfume centered culture. Whenever I read about it, first thing flashed it is a kind of fresh mint sauce ( rather 'ra'aita'). Meroke, Papua, Borneo. Anyway. Some other day. This thread is just about kinam/kyara.
Thanks dear Nikhil. You nullified 'taste' and 'preference' dilemma.

@Oudamberlove : Thumb up! The way kyara/kynam is described, it is not even a 1 per cent of Oud twigs oil. Hindi is beyond and beyond.

@peter4ptv : YOUUUUUUUUU Naughty! By the way, if this hunch theory is correct, we are going to have 'Siberian uranium Musk' and 'Pacific submarine Ambergris' someday. So STAY ACTIVATED;)!

If it is all about taste and preference, it is fine. But 'epitome' and 'pinnacle', then it has to meet the standard.

Thanks Nikhil, Oudamberlove and peter4ptv.
 
Last edited:

Alkhadra

"Master Kafeel" Resident Artisan
My respected most Alkhadra, what I get from the the above quoted parts of the sentence is: We are in the abyss of darkness about the history of Oud; so, all is actually an existential 'leap into darkness'.


Well, I feel this word 'utilize' connotes negative meaning. Now I couldn't get whether you just referred to this action, or criticized it. Can you please mention those oils 'being called..."? For how long this word is in use/usage about Oud oils?

It never let me draw a definite conclusion. Please, never mind.

It is like putting three periods at the end of a sentence, or writing "To be continued".
You are an Arab, so you can elaborate the place of kynam/kyara in Arab Oud Culture.
I highly respect your views, respected Alkhadra.
I am glad you pointed these things out brother Munir.

There is no darkness, the grades available in the past are still available today, it is merely the quantity of which it is available, and its affordability that has changed.

I did not mean any negative connotation in my wording, I was merely stating the actions at hand, in their respected forms.

The indefinite manner of my speech is due to the fact that I am a man of this century, and cannot actually see how the wood of the past used to look. I am gauging things in terms of probability, since we still find Kyara/Kynam today, albeit very rare, then it should have been found in the past as well. This theory is based on the fact that "if it can happen, it will happen" better yet... "If it could happen, it did happen" on a long enough time frame.

As for the many different ideas on what Kynam/Kyara are, I think that topic has been touched on before. Today there is sinking Brunei Kinam, and purple Cambodian Kinam, and yellow soil Cambodia, and green oil Vietnamese Kyara. This new inclusive grading system that calls this and that Kinam makes it far more difficult to accurately describe what it is. I feel the term Kinam is used to denote a grade:

Sinking < Fast Sinking < King < King Super < Kynam (many other grades in between btw)

However, As brother @Faizal_p points out:
@Nikhil S I can see your point however there is more to kyara than just a type of wood. Kyara is a scent profile attributed by the Japanese/ Chinese and is highly revered due to its uniqueness.

Thats exactly it:
Kynam: Grading system
Kyara: Scent profile

As for the places where I find the words Kynam and Kyara utilized in Arab Oud, please see the two links below:
https://store.asqgrp.com/stores/usa/21006.html
https://store.asqgrp.com/stores/usa/21002.html

Although I cannot say anything about these oils as I have not tried them, this new nomenclature that has risen pays heed to the recent globalization of Oud cultures, further educating societies of the different aspects associated with different Oud cultures. You can see another example of that in the next two following links:
https://store.asqgrp.com/stores/usa/21008.html
https://store.asqgrp.com/stores/usa/crassna-aoud-oil.html

The first link uses the term Sasora, which is a Japanese term that denotes a flavor of Oud.
The second link uses the term Crassna, which is of the species Aquilaria Crassna.

To speak about Arab/Indian Oud culture and talk about the prevalence in Kyara in their cultures is not an easy task.

As I said earlier, Kinam is a grading system, Kyara is a scent profile, in fact, it is one of 6 different scent profiles, otherwise called "flavors" which are the following:

Kyara
Manaban
Sasora
Sumatora
Manaka
Rakoku

To ask "what is Kyara?" is akin to asking what is Manaban or Sasora. To ask if the Arabs ever used Kyara it to ask if they ever used any other Oud of the list above. The answers are all a resounding yes, most definitely.

I will give you an one example to further explain my position:

Ask an Ouddict if they've tried any of the 6 Ouds above, they might not know what you're talking about, although they have definitely tried one of them, as the Oud they tried just so happens to fit into one of those categories.

To ask me to elaborate on Kyara in Arab Oud culture would be the same as asking me to elaborate on Manaka in Arab oud culture.

What is Kyara? A scent profile generally achieved when the tree is infected at a rate faster than it can heal itself, saturating the wood in oil, from Vietnam.

Keep in mind, the term Kinam is NOT one of the 6 Japanese flavors listed above, which is why I said "there are many different ideas".

Thanks respected brother Munir!
 
Last edited:

hedycent

True Ouddict
Here's an idea, we know agarwood was used in ancient Egypt. It looks like there are specimens in museum collections that were found in tombs. Maybe we could get a panel of agarwood experts to examine these and give us a world of information on the grade of archaic oud
 

Rai Munir

Musk Man
As I said earlier, Kinam is a grading system, Kyara is a scent profile,
Thanks, respected Alkhadra. It is an interesting piece of information. At least, some thing definite.

Kyarazen website says:
In the Japanese version of the Chinese compendium of medicinal herbs dating back to the 17-18th centuries, it was written that Kyara was also known as Kynam, Ky-Lam, or Kya-nam. Kyara was a Japan-only term, solely used in Japan to describe Kynam, whilst outside of Japan, kynam or calambac was used instead.

Therefore, only on this website, the word Kynam (Kinam) is used interchangeably with Kyara in many articles because these terms are used in the historical context, when they are equal, identical. Please do not get confused!
Kyara.jpg


:(:Cautious::confused::eek::oops:o_O!
Anyway.
 

Nikhil S

Resident Reviewer
Ok dear ouddicts I found a brilliant piece of Japanese writing on Kyara vs Oud. This article is the most scientific take on this subject from www.japanese-incense.com (Phenomenal pool of Incense Knowledge)


Aloeswood

rikkoku.jpg


Rikkoku (Six Countries)

During the Kamakura period, (1185-1333) the Japanese began using raw woods as incense, and to present these woods in casual settings as well as in formal entertainment and religious ceremony.

In Hong Kong, Kyara is often divided into four types: Yellow, Black, Green, and Iron. However, this is not a scientific grouping. Kyara, according to the Japanese expert Professor Yoneda, is a different scientific group than other Jinko, with a different chemical responsible for the aroma. Although most aloeswood is today called Jinko, it really only refers to aloeswood that sinks in water, and is not Kyara. Aloeswood that does not sink in water is more properly classified as Senkou or Oujuku-koh. Senkou is believed to come from the trunk and Oujuku-koh from the root part of the Daphne species which produces agarwood resin under certain conditions.

In addition, agarwood or aloeswoods from Indonesia and that from Indochina are also different scientific groups with different aromatic chemicals. Indonesian varieties contain Jinkohol and Jinkohol ii where Indochinese contains Dihydrokaronone.

From the early incense contests mentioned in "The Tale of the Genji", we go to the naming of the six varieties, or aromas of Aloes wood, the Rikkoku. This occured sometime later, perhaps even as late as the Edo period, and may have been devised by the Kodo genius Yonekawa Johaku. But this is not for certain according to Japanese expert, Professor Jinpo. Rikkoku literally means "Six Countries."

The classifications are:

Kyara

Kyara is thought to be from Vietnam (Annam) and is sometimes called Kinam Koh, or Kannam.

According to Kyozaburo Nakata of Baieido Ltd., the name Kinam comes from the local language of the Champas of South Vietnam who were early traders of Kyara. The name derives from the combination of the Sanskrit word for black "Kala" and the Chinese word for tree "Bak." Together they formed Kalambak and later the name was changed to Kinam.

The Rikkoku description of Kyara:

"A gentle and dignified smell with a touch of bitterness. The fragrance is like an aristocrat in its elegance and gracefulness."

Manaban

This is a tricky one. Nanban means Southern Barbarian and seems to be a reference to a general area of Southeast asia around the 15th century. It also has references to Western traders around that time, such as the Portugese. It's reference is probably more to a particular type of aloeswood than a geographic distinction. Manaban can not be located today, and new Rikkoku sets apply Jinko with similar characteristics, so it is not known at this time in which region it originated.

The Rikkoku description of Manaban:

"Mostly sweet, the presence of sticky oil on a mica plate is often present after smoldering Manaban. The smell is coarse and unrefined, just like that of a peasant."

Sasora

Like Manaban, the origination of Sasora is not certain, and in modern Rikkoku, jinko with a similar aromatic property is used. Some say it was originally from the Assam region of India.

The Rikkoku description of Sasora:

"Cool and sour. Good-quality sasora is mistaken for kyara, especially at the beginning. It reminds one of a monk. Sometimes very light and disappearing."

Rakoku

Rakoku is from Laos or Thailand, several books mention Rakoku is from Siam. (old name of Thailand)

The Rikkoku description of Rakoku:

"A sharp and pungent smell similar to sandalwood. Its smell is generally bitter, and reminds one of a warrior."

Sumontara

Sumontara refers to the Sumatra Island in Indonesia.

The Rikkoku description of Sumontara:

"Sour at the beginning and end. Sometimes mistaken for Kyara, but with something distasteful and ill bred about it, like a peasant disguised as a noble."

Managa

Managa refers to the Port of Mallaca in Malaysia.

The Rikkoku description of Managa:

"Smells light an enticing, changing like the mood of a woman with bitter feelings. The fragrance is of good quality if it disappears quickly. None of the five qualities are easily detectable."

Incense continues to be a major part of the Japanese culture. Kodo has seen some restoration, and nearly all temples in homes in Japan participate in either casual enjoyment, or its use in religious ceremony.

ma-bowl1.jpg
Photograph by Melanie Aven

Incense Koro at Todaii-ji Temple in Nara Japan

We should mention the ancient incenses still preserved in various Japanese temples, and of the famous fragments of Ranjatai. The paper on Ranjatai mentions three parts were cut. One by the Shogun Ashikaga Yoshimasa, one by the Daimyo Oda Nobunaga, and one by the Meiji Emperor.

ranjatai.jpg


It is common even today for incense masters to give a name to piece of Aloes wood, and it is a great honor to be the recipient of a gift of fine Aloes wood or Kyara whether it is from a piece carrying such a title or not. It is truly a gift from the heart!

Many thanks to Kyozaburo Nakata of Baieido for most of the information here about Aloeswood and the Rikkoku.

Next pagTable of Content
 
Last edited:

Rai Munir

Musk Man
It is Incense wisdom from an established Kodo Master :). Those descriptions are so witty.
Yes, yes, i have got it, and got it wittingly.
By the way, dear Nikhil, at the moment, I am unable to have a definite view about it.
1. Yes, it is incense wood.
2. Highly lovable in China, Japan.
3. Sacred ceremonies: incense listening sessions UNDER the direct supervision of a SPIRITUAL MASTER.

This last one is marvelous.
 
Top