RisingPhoenix

Resident Artisan
So - following my comment on perspective ... a few words about Fermentation - as that is ultimately what this article and post were about.

Because of a few Vendor “perspectives” - many folks in our community have taken the stance that “fermentation is bad”. Personally - I don’t ascribe to this perspective. Why do I not?

Because tons and tons of stuff I love comes from and through a process of fermentation. Pickles, Bonito, Vinegar, Beer, Wine, Scotch, Coffee, Tea, Chocolate, Vanilla, etc., etc., etc. - all come from and are produced through Fermentation. Fermentation is not the enemy that it’s made out to be.

Now - I also understand that there is a fine line between Fermentation, and Rot. Generally speaking - they are similar processes - but they aren’t the same process.

I understand that many in the community want Creme Frèche or Brie. Sometimes - people want Camembert and Muenster's and Blue Cheeses.

Clean Barnyards don’t come exclusively from low grade woods - nor are barnyard notes exclusive to poorly distilled oils. Don’t believe me - visit the world of cheese. Strong cheeses aren’t made from poor quality milk. I don’t need to give some big long chemical dissertation for people to understand - This is why I generally speak in analogies and not in nonsensical chemistry terminologies inaccessible to the majority of readers.

I understand that some vendors don’t like Barnyardy oils or any hints of fermentation. In the culinary world, we would say these people have weak pallets. All they can handle is sugar and sweets. Don’t believe me? Look at what they produce and sell. Generally won’t find anything challenging in their repertoire.

Challenging scents aren’t for everyone. Just because something isn’t a stick of candy doesn’t mean that a person producing it is doing something wrong. It’s just a preference - and that particular product isn’t for them.

With that being said, I think many of the comments from these vendors pooh-poohing these sorts of things (pun intended ;) ) are often talking about general trends In the larger market where rot, rather than controlled fermentation is employed. I don’t disagree with that sentiment, but I do disagree with the lengths that people are taking and applying them.

Hope that helps to clarify a bit.

And before anybody wants to get snappy about these statements ... maybe consider Actually trying my products before mouthing off. Remember - you’re a guest in my house here ;) Don’t be a rude guest.

One last Foodie comment on this line of reasoning…

In the kitchen, we put together dishes with juxtaposing ingredients in order to make a dish pop. We can do this with colors, we can do this with flavors, we can do this with sensations.

Some vendors have been producing oils - again, just my perspective - that is all sugar.

I like to use a little salt, and a little vinegar, and some dirty notes (could be an Oud with some fermentation - could be Civet ... or in a foodie case - maybe some fish sauce). Maybe even a little smoke (some of the Incense Smoke oils I’ve been producing I don’t even want to sell :Roflmao: they are personal faves).

You have to remember that a painting painted all in bright colors looks flat. Painters use shades of shadow and absence of light to make colors pop. We do the same in the kitchen, as we do both in Perfumery and in distillation.

We see this play out with people new to Oud and Perfumery. What do newbies generally reach for? Fruity / Floral Thais and Cambodis. It’s not until they’ve developed their scent palette that they start reaching for oils with more challenging notes… And generally start developing a taste for the very thing that people here are pooh-poohing. :Laugh: We see the same in babies - where first foods are a sweet and sugary and carby. It’s not until kids grow up that they start reaching for more challenging flavors. Don’t remain a kid ;)

If the only thing you’re reaching for is custard… I’d say you’re not reaching very far at all.

Work to expand those palettes. Broaden your perspectives beyond the candy shop. There’s a whole world out there you’re missing out on. ;)
 

zeedubbya

True Ouddict
I would like to add something to this discussion. What @RisingPhoenix says above is very true, but I have a belief there’s more to this than meets the normal eye test. There’s a definite curve which people follow in the pursuit of the “rare and different.”

I am a huge tobacco fan. It’s been a passion of mine for 20 years. I’ve noticed that people who first get into the hobby ALWAYS go from the point of low-grade testing of inexpensive and simple (not-complex) products to trying, sampling and amassing everything (financially possible) under the sun, then back to a position I would say is just slightly above the simple and not-complex. Pipe smokers and cigar smokers alike. It follows a curve which seems to not deviate much from person to person. The time someone takes to get there varies, but they generally follow this same path.

(for simple reference) They first try the basic simple cigars or tobacco blends, then get drawn into the rare, limited, and more challenging. They show off their knowledge of the “finer things” and then they start reverting back toward the simple things they once enjoyed. They usually land at a point which is just slightly above the “simple and basic” and then they fervently challenge this position as the one which everyone will eventually get to. It’s oftentimes a long process over many many years that this happens.

I also see this happen in culinary. I am a foodie myself. When someone gets introduced for the first time to “special and different” culinary, they then fervently search for the odd, rare and special. Once they gain years of experience with the odd, rare and special they revert back to a place just above the basic and simple. To make a simple analogy. People go from Hershey Bars and Pop Tarts, up to truffles, dry aged meats, rare cheeses and weird shellfish and then back down to settle at a point somewhere CLOSER to Hershey Bars and Pop Tarts than Truffles, Dry Aged Meats, Rare Cheeses and Weird Shellfish. I’ve seen very few people stay at the “peak of diversity” in a hobby or passion. Food, Wine, Tobacco, Perfume. Even art appreciation seems to follow the same curve. They become curious, they dabble in the rare and different, then come back down to settle somewhere closer to where they began, but not back at the simple and basic, not back to Pop Tarts and Hershey bars.

It’s the old “been there, done that” phenomenon. Rarely have I seen someone stay at the “peak of different”. It happens, but it’s rare. I’ve wondered if it’s financially driven because people just don’t have the resources to stay at this high level, but even people I know who are wealthy enough to sustain this don’t seem to stay there. It’s a curious phenomenon to me. What causes people to rise up to this level only to come back down when you would think they would go higher and higher? I’m curious if anyone else has noticed this as well? And does it happen in the olfactory realm as well? And JK, I hope this post is encouraging further discussion and is OK inside your vendor space. :)

Z
 

RisingPhoenix

Resident Artisan
I would like to add something to this discussion. What @RisingPhoenix says above is very true, but I have a belief there’s more to this than meets the normal eye test. There’s a definite curve which people follow in the pursuit of the “rare and different.”

I am a huge tobacco fan. It’s been a passion of mine for 20 years. I’ve noticed that people who first get into the hobby ALWAYS go from the point of low-grade testing of inexpensive and simple (not-complex) products to trying, sampling and amassing everything (financially possible) under the sun, then back to a position I would say is just slightly above the simple and not-complex. Pipe smokers and cigar smokers alike. It follows a curve which seems to not deviate much from person to person. The time someone takes to get there varies, but they generally follow this same path.

(for simple reference) They first try the basic simple cigars or tobacco blends, then get drawn into the rare, limited, and more challenging. They show off their knowledge of the “finer things” and then they start reverting back toward the simple things they once enjoyed. They usually land at a point which is just slightly above the “simple and basic” and then they fervently challenge this position as the one which everyone will eventually get to. It’s oftentimes a long process over many many years that this happens.

I also see this happen in culinary. I am a foodie myself. When someone gets introduced for the first time to “special and different” culinary, they then fervently search for the odd, rare and special. Once they gain years of experience with the odd, rare and special they revert back to a place just above the basic and simple. To make a simple analogy. People go from Hershey Bars and Pop Tarts, up to truffles, dry aged meats, rare cheeses and weird shellfish and then back down to settle at a point somewhere CLOSER to Hershey Bars and Pop Tarts than Truffles, Dry Aged Meats, Rare Cheeses and Weird Shellfish. I’ve seen very few people stay at the “peak of diversity” in a hobby or passion. Food, Wine, Tobacco, Perfume. Even art appreciation seems to follow the same curve. They become curious, they dabble in the rare and different, then come back down to settle somewhere closer to where they began, but not back at the simple and basic, not back to Pop Tarts and Hershey bars.

It’s the old “been there, done that” phenomenon. Rarely have I seen someone stay at the “peak of different”. It happens, but it’s rare. I’ve wondered if it’s financially driven because people just don’t have the resources to stay at this high level, but even people I know who are wealthy enough to sustain this don’t seem to stay there. It’s a curious phenomenon to me. What causes people to rise up to this level only to come back down when you would think they would go higher and higher? I’m curious if anyone else has noticed this as well? And does it happen in the olfactory realm as well? And JK, I hope this post is encouraging further discussion and is OK inside your vendor space. :)

Z

Certainly is :)

The realm of Thought Provocation Is the ultimate goal here ;)
 

DubOudh

Aster Oudh
I would like to add something to this discussion. What @RisingPhoenix says above is very true, but I have a belief there’s more to this than meets the normal eye test. There’s a definite curve which people follow in the pursuit of the “rare and different.”

I am a huge tobacco fan. It’s been a passion of mine for 20 years. I’ve noticed that people who first get into the hobby ALWAYS go from the point of low-grade testing of inexpensive and simple (not-complex) products to trying, sampling and amassing everything (financially possible) under the sun, then back to a position I would say is just slightly above the simple and not-complex. Pipe smokers and cigar smokers alike. It follows a curve which seems to not deviate much from person to person. The time someone takes to get there varies, but they generally follow this same path.

(for simple reference) They first try the basic simple cigars or tobacco blends, then get drawn into the rare, limited, and more challenging. They show off their knowledge of the “finer things” and then they start reverting back toward the simple things they once enjoyed. They usually land at a point which is just slightly above the “simple and basic” and then they fervently challenge this position as the one which everyone will eventually get to. It’s oftentimes a long process over many many years that this happens.

I also see this happen in culinary. I am a foodie myself. When someone gets introduced for the first time to “special and different” culinary, they then fervently search for the odd, rare and special. Once they gain years of experience with the odd, rare and special they revert back to a place just above the basic and simple. To make a simple analogy. People go from Hershey Bars and Pop Tarts, up to truffles, dry aged meats, rare cheeses and weird shellfish and then back down to settle at a point somewhere CLOSER to Hershey Bars and Pop Tarts than Truffles, Dry Aged Meats, Rare Cheeses and Weird Shellfish. I’ve seen very few people stay at the “peak of diversity” in a hobby or passion. Food, Wine, Tobacco, Perfume. Even art appreciation seems to follow the same curve. They become curious, they dabble in the rare and different, then come back down to settle somewhere closer to where they began, but not back at the simple and basic, not back to Pop Tarts and Hershey bars.

It’s the old “been there, done that” phenomenon. Rarely have I seen someone stay at the “peak of different”. It happens, but it’s rare. I’ve wondered if it’s financially driven because people just don’t have the resources to stay at this high level, but even people I know who are wealthy enough to sustain this don’t seem to stay there. It’s a curious phenomenon to me. What causes people to rise up to this level only to come back down when you would think they would go higher and higher? I’m curious if anyone else has noticed this as well? And does it happen in the olfactory realm as well? And JK, I hope this post is encouraging further discussion and is OK inside your vendor space. :)

Z
Very enjoyable read your post was Z.
Wonder about this myself. Is it the in driven sense of exploration by humans in general? Can we each be our own Great Explorer on this world. I once read a book about a farmer here in rural Ireland who continued to use plugh horses for his fields even through he could have used mechanical machinery. Weeks before he died he still ploughed the fields using horses. His son spoke on his death...of his always tinkering with the best method to perfect the ploughing with his horses. Had made all sorts of ingenious devices over the years to increase his productivity...but stuck with the horses throughout.
I do think many follow a much walked path to discovery with the senses....a sort of tested and tried method or proven way...
However, I believe what challenges us as to how long the curve of path is....is determined by our inner discovery of what all these nuances really mean to us as people... My first experience of barnyard Hindi Oudh was atrocious...terrible. Today it is such a wonderful fragrance... Why? Has it changed or have I? Today I love the beautiful scent of barnyardy Oudh.
Perhaps at the end of the curve...all we are really doing is flattening the curve and placing everything on a level playing field....so that everything has a similar value..
When discussing worth and value....a friend of mine once said if you threw a banana and a piece of gold at a monkey....he knew which object the monkey would value more over the other...
 

RisingPhoenix

Resident Artisan
Very enjoyable read your post was Z.
Wonder about this myself. Is it the in driven sense of exploration by humans in general? Can we each be our own Great Explorer on this world. I once read a book about a farmer here in rural Ireland who continued to use plugh horses for his fields even through he could have used mechanical machinery. Weeks before he died he still ploughed the fields using horses. His son spoke on his death...of his always tinkering with the best method to perfect the ploughing with his horses. Had made all sorts of ingenious devices over the years to increase his productivity...but stuck with the horses throughout.
I do think many follow a much walked path to discovery with the senses....a sort of tested and tried method or proven way...
However, I believe what challenges us as to how long the curve of path is....is determined by our inner discovery of what all these nuances really mean to us as people... My first experience of barnyard Hindi Oudh was atrocious...terrible. Today it is such a wonderful fragrance... Why? Has it changed or have I? Today I love the beautiful scent of barnyardy Oudh.
Perhaps at the end of the curve...all we are really doing is flattening the curve and placing everything on a level playing field....so that everything has a similar value..
When discussing worth and value....a friend of mine once said if you threw a banana and a piece of gold at a monkey....he knew which object the monkey would value more over the other...

In the monkey’s defense ... bananas are golden, too :Roflmao:
 
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