Alex

Oud Fan
@Alex
Respected Alex, please SPEAK MORE. I am all ear after one and a half years. Otherwise, when I started this thread last year, a lot of information was shared by the respected members, but the picture remained incomplete. Now contours of Kynam and Kyara are getting a definite shape and form.
For sure dear, will have more details and pictures for everyone here about the plantations and the scent profile and technically everything you need to know about it. even the medicinal part of it which is mentioned in almost any major old Chinese medicine book.
 

Mr.P

oud<3er
I was certain, of all the facts about agarwood that I have seen repeated (and come to accept), that the utter rarity and mysterious origins of kyara would hold water.
 
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powdernose

Oud Sprite
FYI for anyone who's interested in knowing what a Kyara/kinam GC analysis looks like, here it is from The Perfumist

Thanks for posting your result.
What precisely did you test?
What was used as the internal standard? It looks to me as though it was the wrong choice as you'll note that the sum of the weight percentages only amounts to a ~9% total.
It makes sense that an analysis of Kyara would predominantly consist of sesquiterpenes and hydroxylated sesquiterpenes,
however from what I recall Kyara should contain the basic agarwood markers and then have additional kyara markers,
from what I see, only a couple in this test are agarwood markers.
Also, I believe kyara is rich in chromones, another element missing from your own test.

7- My boss Mr. Ali Attar is currently working on the largest reference for Kinam wood with two major Japanese companies, and the university of Tokyo hopefully it will be published soon and all ambiguity about this subject will be addressed forever .

I looked through your posted references, I don't think I saw a single common component.
Am I missing something?

Any work done in this direction would be very interesting to read through,
I hope you keep us posted about any developments Ali Attar makes.

we shared a full GC lab analyses that's been done in one of the top USA lab and authenticated by a certified chemist and botanist, this is the only real way to 100% know if the wood is real kinam or not, unless you are a Japanese Kudo master who dedicated a lifetime for the art.

A couple of sources have said that big auction houses have their own validation methods for kyara,
I'm still looking for anybody who can link to the validation process used.

:bowing: So much for the abuse of using the word "kinamic" certainly makes me cringe, want to know how you guys feel?

Yes, the overuse and misuse of the term does annoy me.
 

amanitamusc

Oud Fan
correct sir, it


Yes Sir this is correct, actually the constituents are very similar and scent profile is very similar that even to the experts consider it very compatible. the only different is the way of plantation and the age of plantation. that's what's cutting the cake here. if you are talking about the kinam or kyara that the Japanese or Chinese emperor used to smell and use then unfortunatly that is out of access now and probably limited to very few individuals in the world. I personally know that there are some pieces in the private collections of some kings and royalties, but I doubt they will sell it or give it to the world for sampling or testing anytime soon! (and since I don't have any prove of that so I can't ask anyone to believe it). mainly the only different in scent is the quality so plantations start harvesting after 2 to 7 years with the exception of one that takes 8 to 10 years in vientman. what you see in the general market (airports and convenience stores generally) is the 2 years one, which doesn't really have the same profile it's very similar but not the same when you go 5 years and above that's when you start getting the real kinam profile again the aging got a lot to do with it, we who deal with the kinam have a name for this profile we call it the "emperor profile" or at least that's how it's translated. It's a medicinal vivid kind of scent something herbal but yet woody very distinguishable and very easily recognizable when you smell it for the first time you would swear that you smelled it before or it's very familiar but can't and won't remember it, (but this is another subject- scent psychology). so in reality yes the 5 years and above in age kinam in a good plantation will smells almost identical to an ancient kinam wood, off course there is the age difference, density (which makes a big different in burning), and the environment factors but yes it will be possible hopefully one day we will all witness it, not to mention that there were few actual distillations of real kinam, probably very few people know about it, will have to get the evidents for those later but for FYI one for king Gia long of Vietnam in 1770, one by Japanese master horiyoshi made between 1930 - 1936 and one for a middle eastern king who I won't mention his name but those who work in Kinam knows well that's he's a big fan of it, actually in special occasions his royal palace will be burning kinam in the official "majles" (sitting hall) when he is present. I hope that added some clarity about the subject.
Do you know of any distillation of plantation kinam as of now?
Thank you for all of the information.
 

Alex

Oud Fan
Thanks for posting your result.
What precisely did you test?
- 5 years old plantation spine piece of Kyara from a Kyara plantations in Vietnam.
What was used as the internal standard?
- Selection, Confirming age, Analysis GC test, Comparing constituents.
It looks to me as though it was the wrong choice as you'll note that the sum of the weight percentages only amounts to a ~9% total.
- GC test always done through braking down the material for all solid materials, then it needs a solvent unless it's elementally analysis through burning and gas test.
It makes sense that an analysis of Kyara would predominantly consist of sesquiterpenes and hydroxylated sesquiterpenes,
however from what I recall Kyara should contain the basic agarwood markers and then have additional kyara markers,
- kindly see the attached references, a little search will clear your ambiguity.
from what I see, only a couple in this test are agarwood markers.
- what kind of agarwood, as this can consist of over 200 different kind of wood.
Also, I believe kyara is rich in chromones, another element missing from your own test.
- Based on what test or what reference?


I looked through your posted references, I don't think I saw a single common component.
Am I missing something?

- agrwood by Rozi mohamed - tropical forest page 110, Inkedagrwood by Rozi mohamed - tropical forest page 109 (it's there)

Any work done in this direction would be very interesting to read through,
I hope you keep us posted about any developments Ali Attar makes.
- sure will and probably you guys will hear about it from many other sources.



A couple of sources have said that big auction houses have their own validation methods for kyara,
- true as I `mentioned the test will give you clear indication of the quality, age, and even mono region.
I'm still looking for anybody who can link to the validation process used.
- check the references the books and researches there address it in details.



What precisely did you test?
- 5 years old plantation spine piece of Kyara from a Kyara plantations in Vietnam.
What was used as the internal standard?
- Selection, Confirming age, Analysis GC test, Comparing constituents.
It looks to me as though it was the wrong choice as you'll note that the sum of the weight percentages only amounts to a ~9% total.
- GC test always done through braking down the material for all solid materials, then it needs a solvent unless it's elementally analysis through burning and gas test.
It makes sense that an analysis of Kyara would predominantly consist of sesquiterpenes and hydroxylated sesquiterpenes,
however from what I recall Kyara should contain the basic agarwood markers and then have additional kyara markers,
- kindly see the attached references, a little search will clear your ambiguity.
from what I see, only a couple in this test are agarwood markers.
- what kind of agarwood, as this can consist of over 200 different kind of wood.
Also, I believe kyara is rich in chromones, another element missing from your own test.
- Based on what test or what reference?


I looked through your posted references, I don't think I saw a single common component.
Am I missing something?

- agrwood by Rozi mohamed - tropical forest page 110, Inkedagrwood by Rozi mohamed - tropical forest page 109 (it's there)

Any work done in this direction would be very interesting to read through,
I hope you keep us posted about any developments Ali Attar makes.
- sure will and probably you guys will hear about it from many other sources.



A couple of sources have said that big auction houses have their own validation methods for kyara,
- true as I `mentioned the test will give you clear indication of the quality, age, and even mono region.
I'm still looking for anybody who can link to the validation process used.
- check the references the books and researches there address it in details.



Yes, the overuse and misuse of the term does annoy me.
- kinam, kinam, kinam, many people/companies are doing eau de toilette with 100% chemical components and calling it kinam, companies are not responsible they always what to make money we are responsible of searching, asking, and learning about what a word really means .

regards
 

Alex

Oud Fan
Do you know of any distillation of plantation kinam as of now?
Thank you for all of the information.
you are welcome sir, my pleasure yes there are few mainly 3 respectful ones specialized in kyara only if you ask any person working in agarwood in Vietnam will directly point them out, will not list of mention them here so I don't promote or advertise anything.
 

Alex

Oud Fan
Actually it's funny when you study and read the old Chinese medicine books and ancient references that's talks about kinam, most people even many Oud experts dont' know that, believe it or not but real kinam is not burned for it's smell!
if you ask the real top collectors of kinam in the world they will tell you, those who know this know what I'm talking about even thought to most people this sounds like a Riddle but an emperor kinam, or ancient kinam will be tested in two ways
1- The behavior of the smoke when it's burned.
2- The color of the smoke in a low lighting room.
Don't have to take me word for it, it's mentioned in couple of book that talks about kinam, (ancient kinam).
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
- kinam, kinam, kinam, many people/companies are doing eau de toilette with 100% chemical components and calling it kinam, companies are not responsible they always what to make money we are responsible of searching, asking, and learning about what a word really means .

regards

I wasn't sure as you started talking about cultivated 'kinam'.
Also what type of kinam?

In any case, as I mentioned,
your test doesn't match the profile I recall for Kinam,
and it doesn't match the profiles that you yourself referenced.

you are welcome sir, my pleasure yes there are few mainly 3 respectful ones specialized in kyara only if you ask any person working in agarwood in Vietnam will directly point them out, will not list of mention them here so I don't promote or advertise anything.

As long as you are not the producer or directly linked commercially, you can list them.

1- The behavior of the smoke when it's burned.
2- The color of the smoke in a low lighting room.
Don't have to take me word for it, it's mentioned in couple of book that talks about kinam, (ancient kinam).

I'd heard of 1. before but not 2.
What should the colour be? Or rather, please link to your resource.
thanks
 

Alex

Oud Fan
I wasn't sure as you started talking about cultivated 'kinam'.
Also what type of kinam?

I wasn't talking about any wild kinam to start talking about cultivated kinam, I'm talking about cultivated kinam from the beginning, many members mentioned that wild kinam is out of this world and it's not available anymore and I agreed please read the comments.

In any case, as I mentioned,
your test doesn't match the profile I recall for Kinam,

- what is the profile of kinam that you recall? and were do you recall it from if you don't mind what is your reference and books?

and it doesn't match the profiles that you yourself referenced.
- No it does here are the NIST identifications marked for you with exact reference and page number from where that reference is from

1- α-Guaiene (refrence Daoud Tajeldeinn Ahmaed and Ajaykumar D. Kulkarni page 38)
2- 11-dien (refrence Daoud Tajeldeinn Ahmaed and Ajaykumar D. Kulkarni page 38)
3- 11-dien (refrence agarwood my rozi mohamed page 109)
4- Guaia-1(10) (refrence Daoud Tajeldeinn Ahmaed and Ajaykumar D. Kulkarni page 38)
5- benzaldehyde in that range of quantitation (20 to 30) (refrence Daoud Tajeldeinn Ahmaed and Ajaykumar D. Kulkarni page 38)
6- Santalol, cis,α- (reference Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 page 5)
7- 2-Butanone, 4-phenyl- (reference Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 page 7)
8- 1H,5H-Pyrazolo[1,2-a][1,2,4]triazole-1-thione, tetrahydro-2-phenyl-3-(3-pyridinyl)-
4-Methoxybenzyl phenyl carbonate
4-Amino-5-(5-amino-4 phenyl-1-pyrazolyl)methyl-2-methylpyrimidine
4-phenyl-
( available on our report on 2 , 29 , 30 , 32 presenting different varieties of phenylethyl, with amino, this is used the decide the quality of agarwood and even the region distinguishing different kinds of it and I'm quoting from Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 page 11 reference (20/25) "
chromones were identified in the incense smoke of the Kynam variety (27.23%), but not in the same of Vietnamese, Lao, or Cambodian variety. So far, 39 different 2-(2-phenylethyl) chromone derivatives have been identified in different varieties of agarwood).



As long as you are not the producer or directly linked commercially, you can list them.

- we are linked/working directly commercially.

I'd heard of 1. before but not 2.
What should the colour be? Or rather, please link to your resource.
thanks
interesting what did you heard ?
I won't make it that easy for you guys, but I will tell you were you can find it
1- Agarwood by Rozi Mohammed
2- ong and Nguyen (2014)
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
I wasn't talking about any wild kinam to start talking about cultivated kinam, I'm talking about cultivated kinam from the beginning

At no point was this clear!
This is how you presented your report:
FYI for anyone who's interested in knowing what a Kyara/kinam GC analysis looks like, here it is from The Perfumist

I also asked point blank what precisely you tested and your reply was:
"Kinam, kinam, kinam"

Both statements are misleading.


- what is the profile of kinam that you recall? and were do you recall it from if you don't mind what is your reference and books?

I already specified,
that Kyara should contain the basic agarwood markers and then have additional kyara markers.
As one example there is this Kyarazen article which lists a reference to a Chinese study on Kyara:
https://www.kyarazen.com/gcms-of-kynam/


refrence Daoud Tajeldeinn Ahmaed and Ajaykumar D. Kulkarni

Everything in that overview refers to components in agarwood oil and wood,
there is zero reference to kyara.


6- Santalol, cis,α- (reference Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 page 5)

Yes, you've managed a single match, in your test that component is at 0.01%...

7- 2-Butanone, 4-phenyl- (reference Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 page 7)

That is not a component found in the kyara study you reference:
https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/23/11/2969/htm#B21-molecules-23-02969
rather it is mentioned in the study but the actual reference is this one:
https://www.researchgate.net/file.P...fe6&assetKey=AS:395028015927297@1471193426523
which is with regard to regular agarwood not kynam.

8- 1H,5H-Pyrazolo[1,2-a][1,2,4]triazole-1-thione, tetrahydro-2-phenyl-3-(3-pyridinyl)-
4-Methoxybenzyl phenyl carbonate
4-Amino-5-(5-amino-4 phenyl-1-pyrazolyl)methyl-2-methylpyrimidine
4-phenyl-
( available on our report on 2 , 29 , 30 , 32 presenting different varieties of phenylethyl, with amino, this is used the decide the quality of agarwood and even the region distinguishing different kinds of it and I'm quoting from Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 page 11 reference (20/25) "
chromones were identified in the incense smoke of the Kynam variety (27.23%), but not in the same of Vietnamese, Lao, or Cambodian variety. So far, 39 different 2-(2-phenylethyl) chromone derivatives have been identified in different varieties of agarwood).

None of those are chromones.
By the way, you can't just take one section of a chemical components name and make matches based on that partial name....
Also worth noting that a GCMS of smoke will differ to a test of an acetone extract.

And by the by, 1,2,4 triazoles are synthetic compounds
"The 1, 2, 4-triazole ring is an ubiquitous structural feature of many synthetic compounds"
https://japer.in/storage/models/art...8TQEaBxRIIDuC/a-review-on-1-2-4-triazoles.pdf

interesting what did you heard ?

What I read regarding kynam smoke is that the smoke stream should be thin and rise upwards straight like an arrow,
without swirling before the apex or breaking into wisps.
 

Rai Munir

Musk Man
What I read regarding kynam smoke is that the smoke stream should be thin and rise upwards straight like an arrow,
without swirling before the apex or breaking into wisps.
Sir, if source is some book or article, please mention that here. It will be beneficial for me. Please say it is other than Dr Rozi's book. :Roflmao:
 

Alex

Oud Fan
At no point was this clear!
This is how you presented your report:


I also asked point blank what precisely you tested and your reply was:
"Kinam, kinam, kinam"

Both statements are misleading.

- I was being sarcastic of the repetition use of the name due to commercial use and abuse my bad I wasn'y clear. I'm glad that it is clear now. not sure why you think it was misleading to you, I have at no point or time said that this is wild Kinam as I dont' believe that this (wild kinam) still exists".




I already specified,
that Kyara should contain the basic agarwood markers and then have additional kyara markers.
As one example there is this Kyarazen article which lists a reference to a Chinese study on Kyara:
https://www.kyarazen.com/gcms-of-kynam/

- This test was done on a "Oils" obtained form kinam and not kinam wood!
details on how the GC lab test is done not mentioned, details on how it was extracted not mentioned, details on what lab or chemist authenticated this test is not mentioned, details on this was certified wild or harvested is not mentioned!
doesn't mean this study in wrong or inaccurate as I mentioned it could differ based on region, age and quality, extraction and kind
but I would lobe to see the full research how conducted it and the caliber of the "scientists / researchers" mentioned.


Everything in that overview refers to components in agarwood oil and wood,
there is zero reference to kyara.
- with all do respect that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. A major USA lab, a PHD lab technician, a professional chemist, a certified botanist and Mr. Ali Attar who has been working with kinam for over 10 years all disagree with you.


Yes, you've managed a single match, in your test that component is at 0.01%...

- No dear I have mentioned many and it is clearly listed with the scientific reference. this was authenticated by "A major USA lab, a PHD lab technician, a professional chemist, a certified botanist and Mr. Ali Attar who has been working with kinam for over 10 years" if you disagree please list your qualifications and academics.

That is not a component found in the kyara study you reference:
https://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/23/11/2969/htm#B21-molecules-23-02969
rather it is mentioned in the study but the actual reference is this one:
https://www.researchgate.net/file.PostFileLoader.html?id=57b0a152ed99e133e1110fe6&assetKey=AS:395028015927297@1471193426523
which is with regard to regular agarwood not kynam.

here is the quote for your convince and everyone reading this article "analyzed the smoke profiles of two different varieties of Vietnamese agarwood that were absorbed in Tenax TA, and found small amounts of benzaldehyde and 2-(2-phenylethyl) chromone were present in both varieties of Kynam (Kanakoh) agarwood. Ismail et al. [21] analyzed the chemical constituents of agarwood oil that was absorbed in PDMS and divinylbenzene-carboxen-PDMS, and found that 4-phenyl-2-butanone was one of the major compounds that contributed to the scent."


None of those are chromones.
- benzaldehyde and 2-phenylethyl are not Chromones ?
again I'm using the same quote " analyzed the smoke profiles of two different varieties of Vietnamese agarwood that
were absorbed in Tenax TA, and found small amounts of benzaldehyde and 2-(2-phenylethyl) chromone
were present in both varieties of Kynam (Kanakoh) agarwood. Ismail et al

By the way, you can't just take one section of a chemical components name and make matches based on that partial name....
Also worth noting that a GCMS of smoke will differ to a test of an acetone extract.

- I didn't do that dear, rather 3 lab technicians, a PHD in chemistry in a major USA lab, and 2 kinam experts done that, this was done after testing different samples from different kinds of wood using over 5 "scientific" references and comparing this with multiple kinam tests from top houses and companies. it took over 6 month of work and research and published here for free. non the less I dough many houses delt or worked with kinam as much as we did. kindly note
it is not listed here to convert you or convince you of anything. it is listed here for those who want to have a second reference or a second idea about this subject is a "scientific" "academic" and "lab tested" manner. for you comments and replies and the few mistakes that you mentioned I can humbly say that you are not a chemist or a lab technicians, so feel free to take or dismiss anything or everything you like or not like about the lab test in the end this is a scientific lab test that passed through intense and long process from choosing to handling to testing and finally certificating and it is as sold as it can ever be.

And by the by, 1,2,4 triazoles are synthetic compounds
"The 1, 2, 4-triazole ring is an ubiquitous structural feature of many synthetic compounds"
https://japer.in/storage/models/art...8TQEaBxRIIDuC/a-review-on-1-2-4-triazoles.pdf

- Dear again with all do respect I hope you are not simply googling those components and you actually do have some experience in the chemical field and the lab testing understanding as what is mentioned here is "[1,2,4]triazole-1-thione" and this is natural, and when it comes with this kind of formation it's not only natural but obviously from plant based material that been producing anti-fungi components here is a simply scientific reference to what I just mentioned, you can actually google this and you will get an answer.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23760033


What I read regarding kynam smoke is that the smoke stream should be thin and rise upwards straight like an arrow,
without swirling before the apex or breaking into wisps.

- you got that one correct, the smoke will go in a thin strait line that goes up to one meter traight in a closed "not heavy air circulated room", and the color of the smoke is greenish
this was mentioned in
1- agarwood by Rozi Mohamed page 160
2- Ong HC, Nguyen Agarwood page 20 (as I recall as it's been few years)

regards and greetings,
 

Alex

Oud Fan
Sir, if source is some book or article, please mention that here. It will be beneficial for me. Please say it is other than Dr Rozi's book. :Roflmao:
there are hundreds of references and researches dear, and it is consistently increasing as many Asian and south east Asian research centers and universities are working with agarwood and trying to use for those components to be synthesized to make medicines and beauty products especially anti-fungi and anti-inflammatory products.
 

Chiheisen_Horizon

Oud Beginner
Hypothetically if there were to be this " cultivated kynam" will you buy it ? and sell it as real? one can only be stuck in denial . instead of debating over this, i would petition instead that we educate or rather share to each other what truly is the real kynam not the claimed " kynam"
 
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