Cultivated Aquilaria Sinensis

[Tony Li]

I'm from France Tony.

The hunters if they get caught, there go to jail.

And there are hunters because they don't have the money to invest into plantations.

Mostly they spot a tree and they practice "Huozhuan" on a selected tree and they spot it with so they know where to come back to hope it got infected and cut what they can cut and run very fast before police comes.

All of this leads me to this question : what is Kynam according to you ?

Nice to talk with you, brother, i'm from Guangdong province, China.

Yes, you are right, for now, if the hunters get caught in mainland China or HongKong, they will be put into the jail from 6 months to 3 years. The hunters don't have money to invest plantations. Since the law is getting strict and the wild agarwood is getting less, most of them were quit from this industry, and went to find some other jobs.

Regarding the "Huozhuan", it pronounce in Chinese, it means "Fire drill", please see the attached picture, we use the rebar to make a chisel, then put the chisel into fire, after heated, then use hammer to hit the chisel through the trunk of the agarwood tree. This is the tradition way in mainland China, to make the physical wounds for the infection of the agarwood trees. The agarwood from this way, can use for medicine, the Chinese patent medicine factory will collect for medicinal purposes. And some for incense in the Chinese market. We are the first one to distill the agarwood oils from this type cultivated agarwood by using the hydro-distillation, and sell in the china market, the customers love the oils, the smell is lovely honey sweetness, it has pollen, a floral note I just can't name, a little spice and perfectly balanced, I don't know how to describe it exactly, it is purity and food grade. In China market, most of the people don't have the habit to use fragrance, the agarwood oil market for now is not big. Since we plant lots of Sinensis trees, most of them are more than 10years, some are more than 20years, for the grafting Kinam trees, we plant a lot from the year of 2016, we start to consider the oud market oversea, since beyond wear level, medicine level and incense level, we will have lot of material need to do the distillation, if not, would be a big waste. So we need to know what kind of oud is good in the oversea market, what method should we use? If you are professional at this, it would be highly appreciated if you can help.

Regarding Kinam, according to me, there are 3 points evident difference between kinam and agarwood. First, kinam has more oil content but less resin content, agarwood has less oil content but more resin content, also you can tell the difference when you burn or heat the kinam and agarwood; Secondly, most of the Kinam is soft, agarwood is hard. Thirdly, for kinam, it has special kinam aroma that only kinam have, tasting is more evident. For the region of kinam, China and Vietnam found, maybe Cambodia also have.

 

[Tony Li]

Anyway brother Tony I will stop answering in this conversation as I don't get the thing about this cultivated Kynam stuff.

I get good feedbacks from people according its smell tho and I think that it's a good cheap alternative for people.

As for your investment, as you seem to have invested : take all your time and when your trees are ready : NEVER NEVER follow the advice of people who will encourage you to inject the trees with microbial infection as cheaper alternative because it can affect the oil chemical tests and you will see many big doors closed.

I wish you all the best and if you want a good teacher for distillation, I can advise you @Al Shareef Oudh.

He even recently gave me help with my last project on a very specific and critical aspect .

Hi Brother, thanks for your kindly information. It did a great help for us, for now, there are some companies doing inoculation or BIO fermentation contact with us, we refused cause our customers in China don't like.

We will contact @Al Shareef Oudh for the oud distillation, thanks Brother.

 

[LJH]

Nice to talk with you, brother, i'm from Guangdong province, China.

Yes, you are right, for now, if the hunters get caught in mainland China or HongKong, they will be put into the jail from 6 months to 3 years. The hunters don't have money to invest plantations. Since the law is getting strict and the wild agarwood is getting less, most of them were quit from this industry, and went to find some other jobs.

Regarding the "Huozhuan", it pronounce in Chinese, it means "Fire drill", please see the attached picture, we use the rebar to make a chisel, then put the chisel into fire, after heated, then use hammer to hit the chisel through the trunk of the agarwood tree. This is the tradition way in mainland China, to make the physical wounds for the infection of the agarwood trees. The agarwood from this way, can use for medicine, the Chinese patent medicine factory will collect for medicinal purposes. And some for incense in the Chinese market. We are the first one to distill the agarwood oils from this type cultivated agarwood by using the hydro-distillation, and sell in the china market, the customers love the oils, the smell is lovely honey sweetness, it has pollen, a floral note I just can't name, a little spice and perfectly balanced, I don't know how to describe it exactly, it is purity and food grade. In China market, most of the people don't have the habit to use fragrance, the agarwood oil market for now is not big. Since we plant lots of Sinensis trees, most of them are more than 10years, some are more than 20years, for the grafting Kinam trees, we plant a lot from the year of 2016, we start to consider the oud market oversea, since beyond wear level, medicine level and incense level, we will have lot of material need to do the distillation, if not, would be a big waste. So we need to know what kind of oud is good in the oversea market, what method should we use? If you are professional at this, it would be highly appreciated if you can help.

Regarding Kinam, according to me, there are 3 points evident difference between kinam and agarwood. First, kinam has more oil content but less resin content, agarwood has less oil content but more resin content, also you can tell the difference when you burn or heat the kinam and agarwood; Secondly, most of the Kinam is soft, agarwood is hard. Thirdly, for kinam, it has special kinam aroma that only kinam have, tasting is more evident. For the region of kinam, China and Vietnam found, maybe Cambodia also have.

Hello Tony thanks for all these precious information. Just a quick question hope u could enlighten me. When u said the mother tree u guys found from the mountains, are they sinesis ? Or are they specific spieces that produces kinam ?

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[Tony Li]

Hello Tony thanks for all these precious information. Just a quick question hope u could enlighten me. When u said the mother tree u guys found from the mountains, are they sinesis ? Or are they specific spieces that produces kinam ?

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Hi LJH, regarding "the mother kinam tree is Aquilaria Sinensis or not", it is a tough question, I can not give you a exact answer, cause i am not a botanist, all I know about the mother kinam tree is :
1. From the looking of the mother kinam tree, can not tell it is not a Sinensis tree: for the leaves of the mother kinam tree, you can find similar leaves from Sinensis trees, for the bark of mother kinam tree, you can find similar bark from Sinensis, Every detail from looking of the mother kinam tree, you can find similar details from Sinensis trees.
2. When the mother kinam tree infected by some physical wounds, it can grow the kinam around the wounds. Sinensis tree can only grow agarwood around its wounds. The speed of growing kinam in kinam tree is faster than growing agarwood in Sinensis tree.
3. Plant from the seeds of mother kinam tree, all we get are Sinensis trees, no one kinam tree.
4. When you chew the leaves from the Sinensis trees and the mother kinam tree, the taste for Sinensis trees is bitter, the taste for the mother kinam tree is not.

For your question, I think all we need is time, since the first grafting tree found kinam is the year of 2016, most of the grafting trees are young for now, after more and more the grafting trees grow up, if we can found the same kinam as the mother tree, then we can get the answer.

I think big possibility that the mother kinam tree is one of the Sinensis trees, it is a special genetic mutation, the graft can keep its special genetic, like the orange plantation history. (The orange plantations are planting the grafting trees, e.g the California orange trees are from a genetic mutation branch of a orange tree in Mexico)

 

[LJH]

Hi LJH, regarding "the mother kinam tree is Aquilaria Sinensis or not", it is a tough question, I can not give you a exact answer, cause i am not a botanist, all I know about the mother kinam tree is :
1. From the looking of the mother kinam tree, can not tell it is not a Sinensis tree: for the leaves of the mother kinam tree, you can find similar leaves from Sinensis trees, for the bark of mother kinam tree, you can find similar bark from Sinensis, Every detail from looking of the mother kinam tree, you can find similar details from Sinensis trees.
2. When the mother kinam tree infected by some physical wounds, it can grow the kinam around the wounds. Sinensis tree can only grow agarwood around its wounds. The speed of growing kinam in kinam tree is faster than growing agarwood in Sinensis tree.
3. Plant from the seeds of mother kinam tree, all we get are Sinensis trees, no one kinam tree.
4. When you chew the leaves from the Sinensis trees and the mother kinam tree, the taste for Sinensis trees is bitter, the taste for the mother kinam tree is not.

For your question, I think all we need is time, since the first grafting tree found kinam is the year of 2016, most of the grafting trees are young for now, after more and more the grafting trees grow up, if we can found the same kinam as the mother tree, then we can get the answer.

I think big possibility that the mother kinam tree is one of the Sinensis trees, it is a special genetic mutation, the graft can keep its special genetic, like the orange plantation history. (The orange plantations are planting the grafting trees, e.g the California orange trees are from a genetic mutation branch of a orange tree in Mexico)

Very detailed explantion. It is highly plausible that the mother could have been genetically modified by the bacteria that infected it. In your opinion how then the surrounding trees in the wild not get infected, while only the specific mother tree gets the infection.

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[Tony Li]

Very detailed explantion. It is highly plausible that the mother could have been genetically modified by the bacteria that infected it. In your opinion how then the surrounding trees in the wild not get infected, while only the specific mother tree gets the infection.

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Yes, this is what we are wondering also, I think maybe kinam is not cause the special fungus, it is the tree.

 

[Sinensisoud]

so does anyone have information on cultivation of Aquilaria sinensis? Are any of these excellent Chinese oils being distilled from cultivated wood?

I recall someone posting about “kyara trees” in a plantation and relatively low priced kyara from the farm. Could this be a sinensis plantation? Is this commonly cultivated?

Thanks

Dear Mr.P, As I know, cultivation of Aquilaria sinensis mostly in South China, Laos , Malaysia,ect. Apart from the traditional hydrodistillation method to distilled oud oil, so factory will using Supercritical CO2 Extraction. Many western perfume companies using it. In middle east ,people apply it directly to skin. For plantation “kyara trees” ,or we called Kinan, Qinan, I personally think it's a gene mutation, a variant of sinensis. It's a bit like the gene mutation of albino dolphins and elephants. Of course, this is different from the traditional tree heart resin kyara , which has been practiced by nature for thousands of years.

 

[Mr.P]

Hi LJH, regarding "the mother kinam tree is Aquilaria Sinensis or not", it is a tough question, I can not give you a exact answer, cause i am not a botanist, all I know about the mother kinam tree is :
1. From the looking of the mother kinam tree, can not tell it is not a Sinensis tree: for the leaves of the mother kinam tree, you can find similar leaves from Sinensis trees, for the bark of mother kinam tree, you can find similar bark from Sinensis, Every detail from looking of the mother kinam tree, you can find similar details from Sinensis trees.
2. When the mother kinam tree infected by some physical wounds, it can grow the kinam around the wounds. Sinensis tree can only grow agarwood around its wounds. The speed of growing kinam in kinam tree is faster than growing agarwood in Sinensis tree.
3. Plant from the seeds of mother kinam tree, all we get are Sinensis trees, no one kinam tree.
4. When you chew the leaves from the Sinensis trees and the mother kinam tree, the taste for Sinensis trees is bitter, the taste for the mother kinam tree is not.

For your question, I think all we need is time, since the first grafting tree found kinam is the year of 2016, most of the grafting trees are young for now, after more and more the grafting trees grow up, if we can found the same kinam as the mother tree, then we can get the answer.

I think big possibility that the mother kinam tree is one of the Sinensis trees, it is a special genetic mutation, the graft can keep its special genetic, like the orange plantation history. (The orange plantations are planting the grafting trees, e.g the California orange trees are from a genetic mutation branch of a orange tree in Mexico)

This post is epic. If this is accurate, you have dropped more new information in this one message than I have seen in a long time! Strange that the offspring of the kinam does not share the trait. I am assuming agarwood trees must be cross pollinated... is this correct or can a tree pollinate itself. are all kinam trees from the same original tree? Maybe the kinam trait is recessive... if so it is possible that the second generation of offspring will show the trait occasionally even if the first generation doesn’t.

How cool that kinam develops faster in plantation trees! The future will smell very good it seems!

 

[Mr.P]

Dear Mr.P, As I know, cultivation of Aquilaria sinensis mostly in South China, Laos , Malaysia,ect. Apart from the traditional hydrodistillation method to distilled oud oil, so factory will using Supercritical CO2 Extraction. Many western perfume companies using it. In middle east ,people apply it directly to skin. For plantation “kyara trees” ,or we called Kinan, Qinan, I personally think it's a gene mutation, a variant of sinensis. It's a bit like the gene mutation of albino dolphins and elephants. Of course, this is different from the traditional tree heart resin kyara , which has been practiced by nature for thousands of years.

Thank you - great information.

 

[Mr.P]

Very detailed explantion. It is highly plausible that the mother could have been genetically modified by the bacteria that infected it. In your opinion how then the surrounding trees in the wild not get infected, while only the specific mother tree gets the infection.

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I think a more likely explanation is a mutation or rare recessive trait. Genetic transformation via bacteria seems unlikely in general, but especially given the fact that it doesn’t spread as you point out

 

[Rai Munir]

Thanks and thanks, respected @Sinensisoud and @Tony Li

Rightly remarked by Mr P after a pretty long time such invaluable information has been shared here.


Genetic mutation
Oil and resin

 

[Tony Li]

This post is epic. If this is accurate, you have dropped more new information in this one message than I have seen in a long time! Strange that the offspring of the kinam does not share the trait. I am assuming agarwood trees must be cross pollinated... is this correct or can a tree pollinate itself. are all kinam trees from the same original tree? Maybe the kinam trait is recessive... if so it is possible that the second generation of offspring will show the trait occasionally even if the first generation doesn’t.

How cool that kinam develops faster in plantation trees! The future will smell very good it seems!

Regarding the pollinate, A agarwood tree can pollinate itself. I heard that the offspring from pollinate itself sometimes grow not as good as the cross pollinated.

Regarding “all the kinam trees from the same original tree”, all the grafting kinam trees are not from the same original tree, there are some original kinam trees transplanted from the forest in huizhou City China by the hunters, the quantity is small, can count by hands. The original kinam trees in the forest are rather rare and not easy to find.

Regarding “it is possible that the second generation of offspring will show the trait occasionally even if the first generation doesn’t.”, no one around here plant the second generation of offspring and check out if we can get the kinam tree. We did plant around one thousand offspring and check if we can even get one kinam tree 10years ago, the result is no one kinam tree, then we stop it. Since it is rather hard for doing the test, the offspring need to grow at least 3years, then you need to make a physical wound on the tree, after one year, you need to check the wound one tree by one tree, to see if can get the kinam there, it takes times.

Yes, it is cool that the kinam develop faster in the plantation, and it is without inoculation or chemical, it is healthy. In the future, the consumers can afford to smell it.

I attached a picture of a graft kinam tree with flower and seeds.

 

[Mr.P]

Wow! So here is what I have learned (anyone please correct any misconceptions here if you are willing):

1. Multiple specific living trees that naturally produce kinam have been found.

2. Kinam trees cannot be easily distinguished from Aquilaria sinensis trees

3. Some small trees have been transplanted to plantations. Also some branch cuttings have been established from some of these trees.

4. When transplanted, these trees still naturally produce kinam without artificial innoculant and at a rapid pace compared to agarwood.

5. Cuttings from kinam trees also develop into kinam producing trees.

6. the seeds of these trees, when planted, fail to produce kinam trees.

7. Trees can self pollinate or cross pollinate. (If the offspring of a self-pollinated tree fail to show the trait that means the “recessive trait” explanation is not supported).

Anything left out or inaccurate here?

 

[Tony Li]

7. Trees can self pollinate or cross pollinate. (If the offspring of a self-pollinated tree fail to show the trait that means the “recessive trait” explanation is not supported).

Yes, rather clear.

For the point 7, I have learned, so it is not cause “recessive trait”.

A strange point, lots of wild sinensis trees in the forest in Guangdong, Hainan, Guangxi, Yunnan province and Hongkong in China. All of the kinam original trees transplanted are from a small mountain in Huizhou City, Guangdong. Other place is rather hard to get the kinam or kinam trees, rather low possibility, and the plantation we use the seeds to grow sinensis trees, more than 1 million trees, can not find kinam tree. Also other plantations or people planted in the backyard, no one find even one kinam tree.

In Vietnam, some people claimed that they have the kinam type trees, and selling the trees, but what we saw are not kinam trees. The Vietnam send some this type of trees to Taiwan as a gift, and planted in Taiwan, we went to visit 10 years ago, those trees grow up but can not grow kinam. That make us feel that the kinam trees once transplant then they start to changing back to normal agarwood trees.

 

[Rai Munir]

In Vietnam, some people claimed that they have the kinam type

Would you please explain the underlined one? Thanks

 

[Tony Li]

Would you please explain the underlined one? Thanks

“The kinam type” or “kinam cultivated varieties”, they did not name “kinam trees” directly, cause they know that it is rather low possibility to grow kinam in those trees, they claimed that “those trees looks the same as the kinam trees, have chance to grow kinam.”

 

[Tony Li]

I took some videos about the cultivated kinam recently, and uploaded to the YouTube. The links as below:

 

[Andrew Salkin]

I took some videos about the cultivated kinam recently, and uploaded to the YouTube. The links as below:

Wow. Very nice to see this. It's not every day we get this level of detail. Of course people will still argue about if it's kinam but not everything is fake news. I appreciate you taking the time to make these videos. Thank you.

 

[Tony Li]

Wow. Very nice to see this. It's not every day we get this level of detail. Of course people will still argue about if it's kinam but not everything is fake news. I appreciate you taking the time to make these videos. Thank you.

Thank you. There is one sentence in Chinese, “Good agarwood can speak by itself”. I think for the cultivated kinam, the cultivated kinam and time would prove itself.