Casto

Oud Beginner
Still working on to identify the wood. I found more pieces of the wood recently. They are grey- pale blue and purplish color. The pieces are little bit
 
Last edited:

Alex

Oud Fan
scan0003.jpg
scan0004.jpg
scan0005.jpg
Inkedscan0002_LI.jpg
FYI for anyone who's interested in knowing what a Kyara/kinam GC analysis looks like, here it is from The Perfumist
 

Chiheisen_Horizon

Oud Beginner
Buy a real Kyara and smell it ! if you love Aromatic woods. the answer lies within the smell. you can give a collector with good smell and knowledge a piece of brunei and a piece of Kyara. He will know straight :bowing: So much for the abuse of using the word "kinamic" certainly makes me cringe, want to know how you guys feel?
 

Alex

Oud Fan
Buy a real Kyara and smell it ! if you love Aromatic woods. the answer lies within the smell. you can give a collector with good smell and knowledge a piece of brunei and a piece of Kyara. He will know straight :bowing: So much for the abuse of using the word "kinamic" certainly makes me cringe, want to know how you guys feel?
very true actually most experts (as we personally worked with some Japanese experts specialized in kinam) will know it immediately from the smell before even burning it or seeing it, we make a blind test and wrap 2 pieces in a holed cloth and they would immediately know the real kinam this is because of the strong medicinal notes from the real kinam it's very special and obvious it's very vivid in a way different than other woods which are more heavy and dull if I may say, but in reality all experts and collectors will ask for a lab test GC full spectrum, because this dosn't even tells if the piece is real kinam but the quality of that kinam and in many cases the age. that's why we wanted to share this lab test with everyone.
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
very true actually most experts (as we personally worked with some Japanese experts specialized in kinam) will know it immediately from the smell before even burning it or seeing it, we make a blind test and wrap 2 pieces in a holed cloth and they would immediately know the real kinam this is because of the strong medicinal notes from the real kinam it's very special and obvious it's very vivid in a way different than other woods which are more heavy and dull if I may say, but in reality all experts and collectors will ask for a lab test GC full spectrum, because this dosn't even tells if the piece is real kinam but the quality of that kinam and in many cases the age. that's why we wanted to share this lab test with everyone.

You do realise that the lab test - although interesting - does not have much value until it is baselined against a known signature test result right? Would be good to get more tests of kinam done by other users or vendors here... guys, Alex has got the ball rolling. Anyone for a follow up?
 

Alex

Oud Fan
@Oud Sina have you spoke to any kyara experts maybe its worth sending samples to @Kyarazen @acomfortingScent or @Oud_learner who will be able to tell you what it is or atleast if its kyara, im very optimistic about it being kyara but the experts can clarify :thumbsup:
we shared a full GC lab analyses that's been done in one of the top USA lab and authenticated by a certified chemist and botanist, this is the only real way to 100% know if the wood is real kinam or not, unless you are a Japanese Kudo master who dedicated a lifetime for the art.
 

Alex

Oud Fan
You do realise that the lab test - although interesting - does not have much value until it is baselined against a known signature test result right? Would be good to get more tests of kinam done by other users or vendors here... guys, Alex has got the ball rolling. Anyone for a follow up?
actually there are few references from top universities about the constituents of kinam, based on multiple research you can get and separate elements that will confirm if this is real kinam or not. I will publish those studies here for you if you are interested
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
actually there are few references from top universities about the constituents of kinam, based on multiple research you can get and separate elements that will confirm if this is real kinam or not. I will publish those studies here for you if you are interested

That would be great thanks
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
we shared a full GC lab analyses that's been done in one of the top USA lab and authenticated by a certified chemist and botanist, this is the only real way to 100% know if the wood is real kinam or not, unless you are a Japanese Kudo master who dedicated a lifetime for the art.

Sure, what you have done is great - you have sent a sample of kinam to a lab who have conducted a GCMS test on it. Nowhere in that test does the lab confirm that it is kinam - they simply cannot do that, unless they have a reference signature from a known/verified library and compare it to confirm.

The references in the report to library comparisons is to identify the individual peaks and bear in mind that there may be different sub-species and branches where the signature may differ - to what extent I have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised in differences in the same tree depending on where the sample was taken from. If there is a library somewhere - or if enough reports exist - to give a good cross-representation of a typical kinam signature graph, then this may be used to confirm your test.
 
Last edited:

Alex

Oud Fan
That would be great thanks
1- list of sesquiterpenes from agarwood oils / agarwood by Rozi Mohamed / tropical forest / springer / page 109
2- list of sesquiterpenes from agarwood oils / agarwood by Rozi Mohamed / tropical forest / springer / page 110
3- Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 research - headspace gas chromatography - page 4
4- Sesquiterpenes and Chromones of Agarwood - by Daoud Ahmaed and Ajaykumar page 37
5- Sesquiterpenes and Chromones of Agarwood - by Daoud Ahmaed and Ajaykumar page 38
6- there is another one from Harvard Botany department pretty much saying the same thing (I can't find it now)
7- My boss Mr. Ali Attar is currently working on the largest reference for Kinam wood with two major Japanese companies, and the university of Tokyo hopefully it will be published soon and all ambiguity about this subject will be addressed forever .
 

Attachments

  • agrwood by Rozi mohamed - tropical forest page 110 .jpg
    agrwood by Rozi mohamed - tropical forest page 110 .jpg
    208.6 KB · Views: 396
  • Inkedagrwood by Rozi mohamed - tropical forest page 109_LI.jpg
    Inkedagrwood by Rozi mohamed - tropical forest page 109_LI.jpg
    119.9 KB · Views: 414
  • Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 research - headspace gas chromatography - page 4   .PNG
    Molecules 2018, 23, 2969 research - headspace gas chromatography - page 4 .PNG
    81.7 KB · Views: 302
  • Sesquiterpenes and Chromones of Agarwood - by Daoud Ahmaed and  Ajaykumar page 37  .PNG
    Sesquiterpenes and Chromones of Agarwood - by Daoud Ahmaed and Ajaykumar page 37 .PNG
    52.9 KB · Views: 265
  • Sesquiterpenes and Chromones of Agarwood - by Daoud Ahmaed and  Ajaykumar page 38 .PNG
    Sesquiterpenes and Chromones of Agarwood - by Daoud Ahmaed and Ajaykumar page 38 .PNG
    53.3 KB · Views: 253

Alex

Oud Fan
Sure, what you have done is great - you have sent a sample of kinam to a lab who have conducted a GCMS test on it. Nowhere in that test does the lab confirm that it is kinam - they simply cannot do that, unless they have a reference signature from a known/verified library and compare it to confirm.

The references in the report to library comparisons is to identify the individual peaks and bear in mind that there may be different sub-species and branches where the signature may differ - to what extent I have no idea. I wouldn't be surprised in differences in the same tree depending on where the sample was taken from. If there is a library somewhere - or if enough reports exist - to give a good cross-representation of a typical kinam signature graph, then this may be used to confirm your test.
This already happen dear, that's how all major kinam buyer and companies buy their wood, anyone who deal in this business know it well after it's tested and after that test is compared to the known database that's been studied and published by many major universities and scholars. not only that but you can decide the age, quality and sometime exact mono region from the test . this is a vague area for many people as not many deal in kinam and those who do rarely share much information about it.
 

Ouddict

Ouddict Co-Founder & Tech Support
Some excellent information there. Are some of the reference from that book called Agarwood by Rozi Mohammad? I have that but haven’t gone through it cover to cover. I’ll have to take a second look at it.
 

Mr.P

oud<3er
“hopefully it will be published soon and all ambiguity about this subject will be addressed forever .”

What gets my attention is recent references to kyara plantations. Is the whole “kyara is a rare and vanishing product of old growth Vietnamese oud that will not be regenerated in human lifespans” myth just marketing? Or has there been a discovery? The plantations have been there for a while if folks are harvesting now! Maybe they are just Aquilaria sinensis plantations and the scent of the wood reminds people of kyara? Is plantation kyara the real deal?
 
“hopefully it will be published soon and all ambiguity about this subject will be addressed forever .”

What gets my attention is recent references to kyara plantations. Is the whole “kyara is a rare and vanishing product of old growth Vietnamese oud that will not be regenerated in human lifespans” myth just marketing? Or has there been a discovery? The plantations have been there for a while if folks are harvesting now! Maybe they are just Aquilaria sinensis plantations and the scent of the wood reminds people of kyara? Is plantation kyara the real deal?

My dram vials of Shoyeido, Baieido, and Yamadamatsu Kyara, have more aroma than a 20ml vial full of Kevin’s plantation Kynam. But the plantation Kynam exhibits room temperature aroma very akin to Kyara, the way the resin saturates the wood is very much like Kyara, if chewed has numbing effects, and when heated is very Kyara-like as well.

I’m not an expert, but this is my guess.....

•Kyara/Kinam, has to start as a Kyara tree, and is not formed from a regular agarwood tree after a very long resination period.

•Kyara trees grow in a wider region than Vietnam alone.

•Age does matter, so an older Kyara tree can develop a more mature aroma.

•No two Kyaras are alike. Some may have a more fragrant edge than others, and some may have different profile nuances as well, but......all should share that Kinamic backbone.


Like I said, this is my guess, I am not claiming to know this as fact.

However,,,
If more and more Kynam trees are propagated, then the likelihood of a Kyara Oud distillation may one day be feasible :eek::):clapping::clapping::clapping:
 

Alex

Oud Fan
Some excellent information there. Are some of the reference from that book called Agarwood by Rozi Mohammad? I have that but haven’t gone through it cover to cover. I’ll have to take a second look at it.
yes Sir it is, additionally there is another research from that same lady Dr. Rozi in Putra Malaysia (UPM), that has the whole GC test with comparison and constituents details.
 

Alex

Oud Fan
My dram vials of Shoyeido, Baieido, and Yamadamatsu Kyara, have more aroma than a 20ml vial full of Kevin’s plantation Kynam. But the plantation Kynam exhibits room temperature aroma very akin to Kyara, the way the resin saturates the wood is very much like Kyara, if chewed has numbing effects, and when heated is very Kyara-like as well.

I’m not an expert, but this is my guess.....

•Kyara/Kinam, has to start as a Kyara tree, and is not formed from a regular agarwood tree after a very long resination period.

•Kyara trees grow in a wider region than Vietnam alone.

•Age does matter, so an older Kyara tree can develop a more mature aroma.

•No two Kyaras are alike. Some may have a more fragrant edge than others, and some may have different profile nuances as well, but......all should share that Kinamic backbone.


Like I said, this is my guess, I am not claiming to know this as fact.

However,,,
If more and more Kynam trees are propagated, then the likelihood of a Kyara Oud distillation may one day be feasible :eek::):clapping::clapping::clapping:
correct sir, it
My dram vials of Shoyeido, Baieido, and Yamadamatsu Kyara, have more aroma than a 20ml vial full of Kevin’s plantation Kynam. But the plantation Kynam exhibits room temperature aroma very akin to Kyara, the way the resin saturates the wood is very much like Kyara, if chewed has numbing effects, and when heated is very Kyara-like as well.

I’m not an expert, but this is my guess.....

•Kyara/Kinam, has to start as a Kyara tree, and is not formed from a regular agarwood tree after a very long resination period.

•Kyara trees grow in a wider region than Vietnam alone.

•Age does matter, so an older Kyara tree can develop a more mature aroma.

•No two Kyaras are alike. Some may have a more fragrant edge than others, and some may have different profile nuances as well, but......all should share that Kinamic backbone.


Like I said, this is my guess, I am not claiming to know this as fact.

However,,,
If more and more Kynam trees are propagated, then the likelihood of a Kyara Oud distillation may one day be feasible :eek::):clapping::clapping::clapping:

Yes Sir this is correct, actually the constituents are very similar and scent profile is very similar that even to the experts consider it very compatible. the only different is the way of plantation and the age of plantation. that's what's cutting the cake here. if you are talking about the kinam or kyara that the Japanese or Chinese emperor used to smell and use then unfortunatly that is out of access now and probably limited to very few individuals in the world. I personally know that there are some pieces in the private collections of some kings and royalties, but I doubt they will sell it or give it to the world for sampling or testing anytime soon! (and since I don't have any prove of that so I can't ask anyone to believe it). mainly the only different in scent is the quality so plantations start harvesting after 2 to 7 years with the exception of one that takes 8 to 10 years in vientman. what you see in the general market (airports and convenience stores generally) is the 2 years one, which doesn't really have the same profile it's very similar but not the same when you go 5 years and above that's when you start getting the real kinam profile again the aging got a lot to do with it, we who deal with the kinam have a name for this profile we call it the "emperor profile" or at least that's how it's translated. It's a medicinal vivid kind of scent something herbal but yet woody very distinguishable and very easily recognizable when you smell it for the first time you would swear that you smelled it before or it's very familiar but can't and won't remember it, (but this is another subject- scent psychology). so in reality yes the 5 years and above in age kinam in a good plantation will smells almost identical to an ancient kinam wood, off course there is the age difference, density (which makes a big different in burning), and the environment factors but yes it will be possible hopefully one day we will all witness it, not to mention that there were few actual distillations of real kinam, probably very few people know about it, will have to get the evidents for those later but for FYI one for king Gia long of Vietnam in 1770, one by Japanese master horiyoshi made between 1930 - 1936 and one for a middle eastern king who I won't mention his name but those who work in Kinam knows well that's he's a big fan of it, actually in special occasions his royal palace will be burning kinam in the official "majles" (sitting hall) when he is present. I hope that added some clarity about the subject.
 

Rai Munir

Musk Man
@Alex
Respected Alex, please SPEAK MORE. I am all ear after one and a half years. Otherwise, when I started this thread last year, a lot of information was shared by the respected members, but the picture remained incomplete. Now contours of Kynam and Kyara are getting a definite shape and form.
 
Top