What do we feel about cost of Oud oils?

Discussion in 'General' started by Mr.P, Aug 3, 2016.

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What do we feel about cost of Oud oil?

  1. Way Overpriced

    26 vote(s)
    37.1%
  2. High

    28 vote(s)
    40.0%
  3. Unreasonable

    3 vote(s)
    4.3%
  4. Fair

    13 vote(s)
    18.6%
  5. Cheap

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Way too cheap

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Al Shareef Oudh

    Al Shareef Oudh Resident Artisan

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    @firdaous @JohnH @jalil

    That is great to see, each of you have exercised your right in a free market, and also your choice as consumers to chose between different products in the market based on the parameters that are important to you. As in the example that firdaous has given with regards to Ceen and FH, already we can see a robust difference of opinion based on each individuals assessment of these products, and we can see that those opinions you guys hold ultimately influenced your decision with regards to a purchase.

    @firdaous

    I am going to deconstruct your argument here so that we understand your point of view better
    when you say 'better' what are you referring to? Quality of the oil or scent, or both?

    On both oils you have visibility of only the scent therefore based on smell you are deciding which oils is 'better', which is subjective and that is absolutely fine. A consumer has total control of their decision making and that is how it should be. However the issue with that line of thinking creates a counterproductive argument to this whole thread and discussion, if the distiller distils amazing smelling oils from very cheap wood, you will be willing to pay more because it is 'better' :) and totally ignore the actual cost of the product based on objective parameters such as wild wood vs cultivated etc.

    My questions are however still not answered, i encourage any/every consumer to take it;

    Is it that the consumer feels by purchasing a high price item they get more fulfilment, especially if they get that high price item at a discount?

    Does high price give a sense of prestige?

    Do consumers think high price equates high quality?

    Or simply why are high priced oudhs so attractive?

    at the local store we know what we can and cant afford, do we go to the store owner and run similar discussions as to why he has these high price items?
     
  2. JohnH

    JohnH Oud Fan

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    Here's my answers to the questions @Al Shareef Oudh asked above:

    Is it that the consumer feels by purchasing a high price item they get more fulfilment, especially if they get that high price item at a discount?

    The most I have spent on a full bottle of oud is $790 and this is a lot of money for me. Fulfillment only comes for me once I have got to know the oil properly and I start to really benefit from it's use.

    Does high price give a sense of prestige?

    No, not for me.

    Do consumers think high price equates high quality?

    From my experience, yes. I have been careful when choosing though.

    Or simply why are high priced oudhs so attractive?

    I use oud as a medicine for my bipolar, as well as a fine fragrance. The ones which have a more therapeutic effect just happen to be the more expensive ones. My wife likes these ones better too. Saying that I have enjoyed and benefited from nearly all the ouds I've got, both the cheaper and more expensive ones.

    at the local store we know what we can and cant afford, do we go to the store owner and run similar discussions as to why he has these high price items?

    No.
     
  3. Ammar

    Ammar Oud Fan

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    I don't know if this what you mean but it is a common practice to ask in details here in the US. If I see a laptop or TV with very high price compared to others, I would ask the presenter or at least read the fully detailed description of each which is always there and clear and see why such difference in prices and whether it worth to save up for it or not. Same goes to cars when I find the same model with almost the same exterior design but higher in price related to extra options, I simply inquire, evaluate and assess worthiness. Or if I’m just a brand fan then I would buy whatever this brand offers me even when it does not worth the price by being overpriced to the actual value like in Apple products for example. In addition to the presence of several websites which are specialized in rating products objectively and subjectively based on the buyers experience that I can browse and read about and decide.

    Another point I want to clarify before the discussion go long is what quality means in oud oil. Is it something related primarily to the scent profile and secondarily to the structural properties of the oil affecting the scent profile which I think this is what most of the users refer here, or does it mean the quality control of oud at the level of the distillation pot not necessary related to the scent profile in general which I guess this is what @Al Shareef Oudh is referring to by saying high quality oil? Pre-distillation vs post-distillation quality.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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  4. Ammar

    Ammar Oud Fan

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    @firdaous,
    Do you really listen to RAP music :eek:?! I would not imagine of that LOL:D:p!
     
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  5. hasans1412

    hasans1412 Resident Artisan

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    Here's what my answers would have been few year's back, but it has changed a lot now! @Al Shareef Oudh

    1. Is it that the consumer feels by purchasing a high price item they get more fulfilment, especially if they get that high price item at a discount?
    Not fulfilment, but if it was brought in discount then I used to get the feeling of getting a deal for myself and saving money. You generally feel happy when you save money.

    2. Does high price give a sense of prestige?
    Can't deny but that was a sort of personal feeling back then for me, don't ask me why but it just was...

    3. Do consumers think high price equates high quality?
    Value, in terms of cost price in it's making - yes. But scent wise I used question as it might not go with my taste.

    4. Or simply why are high priced oudhs so attractive?
    Can't remember my approach on this one. But what I do remember was that I got into a proper super Ouddict phase, in which I felt the need as in a must, to try any oils that I could grab, not worrying about the price although I could not afford it, so I went into a lot of debts. And those in debts know, once you are in, it's very difficult to break free and hence I had the feelings that I could afford anything and price no longer mattered to me. And the fact that an oil could be sold out and you never got to try it made me feel that I must have it. It was an weird phase, in which I had a lot of oils just sitting on the shelves and I still haven't tried them and I was ordering new ones, just knowing that these are there with me, some how was satisfying enough. It was only quite recent that I managed to break free of this craze and now make rational decisions in buying an oil. Firstly, can I 'actually' afford it? or do I need to put in that extra few hours overtime to help with the cost...
     
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  6. Ouddict

    Ouddict Technical Support

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    This slogan about making Oud cheap again is the result of certain people deliberately misrepresenting a post I wrote late last year. It is a deliberate straw-man slogan to detract from the real issues that customers care about. My personal view is that vendors can sell at whatever price they like, but then they should also realise that customers can and will question and challenge their statements about their products, or any blasé dismissal of rival products. Unfortunately some vendors attract more controversy than others due to their modus operandi, but what I wrote applies to all.
     
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  7. Smoud

    Smoud Whats this Oud About?

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    Hi all. Been reading the forum for a while. Decided to chime in with my 2p worth.

    I think some oud has got too expensive, anything over $300 I would class as expensive. There is however a clear market for this price point and way above, and I have nothing against that.

    I often wonder how many people could recognise in a blindfolded test the difference between $1000+ oil and say a $400 oil. I've never tried oils in the $1000's but I've certainly got oils that are in the $150 range which to me are better quality that $400+ oils I possess.
    So to me it's not a linear relationship between price and quality.

    And we all know in retail higher cost psychologically primes subjects to perceive higher quality.....
     
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  8. Ammar

    Ammar Oud Fan

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    Welcome @Smoud...
     
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  9. Ouddict

    Ouddict Technical Support

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    Pretty much my thoughts on the matter...
     
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  10. firdaous

    firdaous Oud Kinamic

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    @Al Shareef Oudh I do understand that this subject is quite sensitive for you as you are the only one with Ensar Oud to offer some oils which cost much more than $1000 the bottle.And I do understand that you need more informations regarding customers wishes and expectations as Al Shareef oudh is quite new in the Oud web scene.
    As discussed already privately, I and I am sure some others find some of your oils overpriced mainly due to the lack of informations and transparency.
    I encourage you and the others to be more precise with their high grade distillations presentation and answer to those questions:
    -wood used (grade + species + % of sinking or high grade wood inside the pot)
    -distillation technique and process
    -distillation under your supervision YES or NO
    -
    Oil simply bought from a distiller and resold
    -Age etc...
    Personal statement : I am not willing to pay more than $1000/1500/2500 the bottle only for Bollywood stories as you said!
    And to make it simple for you and the others, it's not only a question of price consumers like me want now more honesty and transparency in this market and it's their own right!
    By the way some ouddicts down here are still waiting for your Al Malek oils presentation and their prices of course...
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  11. Smoud

    Smoud Whats this Oud About?

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    The cost of raw materials and running a business is not really the concern of the customer. The vendor needs to provide what the customer wants for a successful business. And at the moment for the most part that seems to be happening.

    Although in this poll concensus seems to be that oils are on the expensive side.
     
  12. Smoud

    Smoud Whats this Oud About?

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    Does anyone ever wonder about the raw materials, distillation techniques and hygiene practices of distillers of oils that are 30, 40 etc years old?

    We've been reliably told by our trusted vendors that alot of practices they came across were less than satisfactory and understandably so. I wonder how these really old oils were done.....they're well received either way.
     
    Mandeel AlMandeel likes this.
  13. Al Shareef Oudh

    Al Shareef Oudh Resident Artisan

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    @firdaous

    No actually it isn't a sensitive subject for us because our pricey oudhs are all custom distils for clients in the middle east, all of them have committed buyers. To release them online is for the benefit of our online clients to get a glimpse of what some custom distillations look, feel and smell like. That is why the Al Malek Series oils are private released and you would not have got information on it because we released it to select clients only who have shown interest in those pricey oils.

    I encourage scrutiny and feedback with honesty and sincerity. Initially you were talking about being pricey based on 'better' now your story has changed and you want more information, so you are willing to pay more based on information? and not the scent or quality?

    I think you are a starting to confine a much broader discussion just to a few points and then addressing those to Al Shareef Oudh, if your price comments are directed at Al Shareef Oudh, then you could have saved everyone the 12 pages :p and simply sent me an email, but I havent yet seen any of the above questions from you in email or whatsapps about any of our products. I am glad you ask them in public so that I can address them in public again and help get this thread to more constructive discourse.

    Our business model is well established, getting customer feedback is part and parcel of the continuous improvement life cycle, and if you have been around as long as we have, you also know when there is genuine feedback and when there is pot shots being taken.

    What I find very interesting from the dash points only 2 impact the price the others just feel good questions, or subjective.

    -wood used (grade + species + % of sinking or high grade wood inside the pot) : we do not disclose this information as this is against our policy and we have stated this numerous times. However if clients have requested information in private regarding a certain oil we have made it available to them at times even sending them exact samples of the wood used.

    -distillation technique and process ; Where we feel it is relevant and it will add value to the consumer we share this information, however we are not a vidoeloger type of business like some other vendors are, that is not our business model. Also, the technique does not help your price query.

    -distillation under your supervision YES or NO, Yes it is under my supervision, not only that, I design every single distillation, test it in the lab before rolling it to our factories, we have three facilities, in three different locations, and depending on where I am I will conduct the whole process with our floor team myself.

    -
    Oil simply bought from a distiller and resold ; we do not do this.
    -Age etc... all our oils aged a minimum of 12 months, with the exception of only two.

    Personal statement : I knew that you were not that type of customer.

    I am aware you have had bad experience with some oudh vendors in the past, but it is important that you do not assume bad about everyone.
     
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  14. firdaous

    firdaous Oud Kinamic

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    @Al Shareef Oudh Thanks for your clarifications and I will come back to you if needed!
     
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  15. Al Shareef Oudh

    Al Shareef Oudh Resident Artisan

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    Barik Allah Feek, any time more than happy to answer questions.
     
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  16. Ammar

    Ammar Oud Fan

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    No I don’t usually wonder because:

    The raw material: definitely better because of its abundance at that era.

    The distillation techniques: These have been there for centuries through generations of distillers I’m sure the new online venders/distillers didn’t invent the techniques, maybe tweaked for their personal desire and what they think it’s the best for oil/resin extraction and based on trial/error from experience, in addition to some vendors who are provided now with added scientific approach.

    Hygiene: The good distiller in the old times will take care of hygienic process as the new generation good distiller will do with the exception of certain regions where prolonged heavy fermentation is part of the acquired taste there like in Laos, there is no reason to think the other way around. Keep in mind, short soaking and measured fermentation should not be considered as non-hygienic practice because it's sometimes mandatory to achieve certain scent profile. As for the oil per se, I think it is a sterile environment as I haven’t heard about oil got infected with fungus or suffers from bacterial growth but I’m not sure. For skin particles and other pollutants I haven’t yet seen a major pollution also, and if it’s there in scant amount I don’t think it’s a major problem.

    Case in point OR85. Real oud was produced centuries ago not necessary now...
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
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  17. Dorje

    Dorje Junior Member

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    IME, today's market for luxury goods is divided because of extreme income inequality. Super-high prices are becoming common, with industries looking to produce ever more expensive products for these consumers. Those without extreme wealth often lament how unreasonable and unaffordable this has become. My observation is the high and low ends of the spectrum are doing quite well while the middle market is stagnant. This is especially the case in the US after 2008's major depression, we have NOT recovered from it and it has left the country and the world a changed place and not for the better. The exception to this is small numbers of enthusiasts who are willing to spend on their passions, but they have become much more discerning about how they spend their money and make every attempt to maximize the value of their purchases. (Hence, this very thread)

    On high prices being seen as equating to a more prestigious and higher quality item, YES! Moreso in some markets than others but it's universal whether the person believes it or not. I see people talk a lot about how this isn't the case but their own behavior says otherwise, I see it all the time. But objectively, higher prices do mean higher quality goods most of the time, the saying "You get what you pay for" is most often true. You just need to decide if higher quality is that important to you. For me it often is, but when I went to buy a TV I settled for a model 1/4 the price of the top end models because the minor details didn't matter to me that much. I certainly saw the difference, better shadow detail, etc. but I decided I didn't care that much. For audio quality I'm the opposite, I actually own a high end audio business and am close to releasing a speaker in the $60-90k range. For me oud is more like high end audio... many don't hear the difference between a $5k system and my system, and many do but don't care that much, but for some the "minor details" make all the difference in the world. I find cheaper, lower performing audio systems flat and boring, just like I find oud made with oil grade wood to be flat and boring, I'd rather wear an attar.
     
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  18. Ouddict

    Ouddict Technical Support

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    Some superb comments here... I'm at work so can't write at length, but will certainly add my own contribution later.
     
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  19. F4R1d0uX

    F4R1d0uX Resident Artisan

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    Sometimes stormy days bring the best conversations after :p.

    This is how a debate should be !
    Oud world lacks of confrontation ...

    Fanboyism, between selves, congrats ...
    What a sect !

    In confrontation (sometimes) both sellers and buyers grow and rise !

    Please guyz even if we disagree with a contradictor, we should keep that in mind :)
     
  20. firdaous

    firdaous Oud Kinamic

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    Good lyrics sometimes:)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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