Typicity/typicality/accuracy/cost - Oud Oil Representing Oud Wood

[Al Shareef Oudh]

I think it is important to clarify a few things in this discussion in order to have as accurate as understanding on some of the matters as possible.

The first item I would like to comment on; the proposition of 'oil represents the wood' and if/where this is true what type of wood it will be truest with.

Firstly It is important to remember that when we smell wood on charcoal/heater we are smelling notes from three main sources in that piece of wood; Wood Fibres, Oil, Resin. The heat we apply to the wood heats these elements causing them to release the fragrant compounds. As the temperature rises and times passes the compounds continue to rise at different time intervals with different intensity giving us the varied experience in notes and profiles. On the other hand when we smell oudh oil, we are smelling the rise of fragrant compounds from the oil alone, there are no wood fibres or resin present. As such the proposition of an oil representing the wood or being true to the wood aroma is misleading at the least. Can an oil share some similarities with the wood, yes it can and that is mainly limited to what is transferred from the wood via oil droplets in the distillation process to the final oil. I think the picture some of the discussion above is painting is you smell the wood and you smell the oil and its like wow same same.

Secondly, from experience and from science, the final oil shares more scent similarities with the wood that has the most amount of oil not the wood that is the highest in the incense scale. The reason for this is simple, in a wood piece where the ratio of oil is greater than the wood fibre and resin when one heats it, there is more volume of oil present for fragrant compounds to rise from compared to the wood fibres+resin and therefore the majority of the scent one experiences is from the oil. When this wood is distilled that higher oil content makes its way via the distillation process into the final oil, where again we are smelling the oil and this oil will share most similarity with the initial wood.

There is a lot of romantic narrative around incense wood and oils from them. Just like there is a lot of romantic narrative around sinking wood for heating, yet we know sinking grade wood doesn't always provide the best experience.

When analysing an oil from a perfumery perspective where one removes the hat of happy feels and puts on a more analytical hat. The detail, variety, intensity of an oil is dependent on the presence of fragrant compounds and their concentration in the oil. Which type of wood gives the highest concentration of fragrant compounds is not related to whether that wood is incense grade or not. Rather it is related to the wood with the presence of oil with higher content of fragrant compounds.

The second item that I would like to touch upon is regarding the oils we associate with a region vs the variety of species in that region. In Malaysia for example the most common species is the Malaccensis. Therefore by simple probability there is a greater chance that an oil we smell from Malaysia is Malaccensis. It is also more likely that the 10 oils we have from Malaysia are also mostly or all Malaccensis. Having said that Malaysia has 15 other species as well, much more rare, some even noted as being extinct though every now and then report comes of a rare one being sighted. You may have never smelt some of these other species, and if a vendor releases an oil from one less common species which goes against your expectation of the region, If anyone thinks they have smelt everything Malaysian, than try Marjaan. That can't be put down to distillation 'trickery'. There is a lot that can be done with distillations, however the backbone, the DNA, the core of the oil cant be changed.

there is more to be said, but ill leave it there for the moment.

 

[Oudamberlove]

I wonder.....
If the resin in the wood releases aromatic compounds when heated on a burner/coal,
is it safe to say that the heat in the distillation pot will cause the resin to release some aroma into the oil?

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

the temperature required for the resin to release it's fragrant compounds will burn the oil, it is beyond the distillation temperature.

 

[Oudamberlove]

the temperature required for the resin to release it's fragrant compounds will burn the oil, it is beyond the distillation temperature.

 

[powdernose]

Whether its a case of 'sour grapes' or whatever else
I don't even know how we got here...

Why presume that dissatisfaction with the status quo must arise from 'sour grapes' or some unknown agenda?
We were just discussing various aspects of oud. In all probability, we probably agree on more issues than we disagree on, but there is no reason why we can't amiably discuss and question the points we disagree on.
If I defend my opinions or positions it doesn't mean that I have any specific issue with you personally. I'm not singling you out.

We have disagreed on a fundamental premise,

• shavings vs true incense grade wood, and whether they can both yield oils of the same caliber, and true to the aroma of the raw material. For myself, the two don't even come close. Not even remotely.
  But everything I had typed in the original Blind Test thread was in relation to the market at large
• this is the first and most fundamental of my disagreements with you: I am making the claim that distillation-grade shavings smells like firewood.

If we disagree on this, it is not on a fundamental level, and only because you have framed it in terms of the two extremes.
It seems to me that part of this 'fundamental' disagreement, lies in the fact that you have attributed statements to me that I have never said.
I never equated shavings to incense grade chips .
As I previously said, I don't think it is unreasonable to wonder and speculate about the spectrum between those extremes, and to consider a scenario within, that is not dominated by the 'firewood' aroma. You had said that shaving prices used, 'typically run between $2/kg to $100/kg' and that 'generally speaking you'll have to pay around $800/kg for a batch of wood that carries the true signature of the species'.
So from 100/Kg up to 800/Kg I wonder if there is not an intermediate threshold where it is worth (sometimes) sharing the source wood.
I also gave an example of shavings which do not smell like firewood to me, and that is not a theoretical. What I don't know, is what those shavings would cost at wholesale. Quite possibly they sit within the discussed range, perhaps 200/Kg.
If we accept the tenet that the best distillations are those that remain as true as possible to the source material, then I'd argue that it is possible for distillers assuming that principle to occasionally present source-wood and resulting-oil pairings at lower retail prices.

high-grade wood should be reserved for burning, and that scrap wood should be used for making oils. Those who can distinguish grade-variation between oils are very few.
...for the most part, the product of 'oud firewood' (kayu minyak/ habuk/ serutan/ khisaimai/ lue/ shavings) is perceived by the bulk of the market as no different (or hardly different) from the product of superior true incense grade wood.

I don't believe that.
If you or any other distiller is interested in exploring this idea by blind trial (with the prerequisite level of transparency) I'm 100% in support and willing to help out.

And what are 'techniques' any way?! Those who think 'modern day clean oils' are a product of techniques... what do you actually think those techniques are?
but using the term freely

I only made reference to technique with regard to @Rai Munir's post addressing the past and present of oud distillation, and I'm pretty sure we agreed on that point.
I didn't specify anything or use the term freely.

1) Demanding vendors share photos/videos (or even actual wood, with every order) for every product.
It is useless to compare the wood and oil side-by-side because there will be zero resemblance, except if the raw material was true incense grade (which, as I stated above, is foolish, and if we are talking actual chips then those oils are gonna be prohibitively costly). Secondly, not all vendors live in SE Asia, so how can you expect them to share the raw material for every single batch?

I didn't go to that extreme. I also made no demands
Regarding the required info, @PEARL laid out some of the basics:
"While some of the info may be nice for some to know it is far, far from necessary IMO. Wood grade, offer wood when possible+, scent notes, average longevity+, projection+, GCMS+(certainly not always feasible, but should be mandatory), consumer reviews, price."
I largely agree and added method of extraction and type and duration of soaking.
Regarding pairing source wood with oils, what I said is that it is a nice format, and that I would like to see it implemented more often. Not every time.
I also didn't mention sharing photos and videos of every distillation. I'd certainly like to see it done more often though!
If I were to ask for one thing, and one thing only, it would be that wood grade always be disclosed and for every oil sold.

I'm sure for every bottle of Heinz ketchup that you buy, you don't demand Kraft Heinz to present every single ingredient to you to individually taste and verify (salt, vinegar, etc). If you like the ketchup you like it, if not you try Del Monte's.

Are you suggesting the oud industry follow the Kraft business model?
Because if you are, then we have found our first true fundamental disagreement.

2) Lack of information. OUCH. This one hurts. I think more information is freely available online for oud than any other finished product I can currently think of. And in my case, sharing too much in the past has screwed me. Beyond anything you can imagine. And you're telling me there isn't enough transparency? STRONGLY disagree. I would double-underline if that was possible.

Heck, a bunch of folks have even caught me in the middle of grinding up 'sexy wood', so they get to feast their eyes on that live via WhatsApp video, as well as all home distillations (unlike remote distillations in villages, I do have internet at home) and they get to see those live.

I'm not singling you out, I'm addressing the status quo in the oud market.
Yes, there isn't enough transparency. You sharing live videos with a select few doesn't change the general lack of information.
Name one product with less transparency and general knowledge than oud.
I'll name one that has tons more: wine.

Not many distillers actually cook incense grade wood,

Well, I know that!
What are the common conceptions among oud customers regarding source materials though?
To re-iterate, taking shavings as the dominant source material for oud oils, I can guarantee you that this is first time many are reading about this knowledge. And if the status quo is to be maintained, this thread will eventually gather dust and be forgotten, and next time shavings are discussed, it will be as if for the first time.
Again, my hope is that newcomers to oud won't have to go through the same extreme learning curve I had to go through. It should be easier for future ouddicts. We should be striving to keep building on information gained, to keep moving forward.

Look, I am all for transparency, I am all for tons of genuine questions, but I also think there's a right way to go about things.
I am a big believer in sound epistemology.

Great! I always applaud transparency.
I too like to approach matters in a methodical scientific way.
But talk of 'alchemy' and magic' is hardly scientific.

3) The whole 'Alchemy' thing.
: (1) whether the aroma of the average raw material is represented by the oil product or not, and hence (2) whether "alchemy" / "1+1=3" is appropriate terminology for such distillations or not.

I think I answered this well in my previous post
http://www.ouddict.com/threads/typi...ud-oil-representing-oud-wood.1547/#post-38773
I'll repose one point in form of a question; why should this 'alchemy' apply only to 'firewood' distillations, should it not similarly apply to the upper qualities of agarwood feed-stock?
A reminder too that I am not a big proponent of typicity.

Food for thought: one single batch of wood can be distilled to produce around 15 different distinct oil aroma profiles. And the raw material for all 15 of these batches... was wood that smells like firewood on the heater.

Sounds like a trial waiting to happen

So... as a first step, I would recommend you get in touch with some distillers, get oils (and a fistful of their respective raw materials) from them, and see for yourself. Until then, you are arguing with theoreticals and I'm arguing with first-hand experience (oud is my profession)...

I will probably try that.
But I can't say I'm a fan of those type of shutdowns; if my theory is weak, strip it down
If theory clashes with practice (as it can), help me understand why.
There's nothing wrong with a solid theoretical base.

I was arguing FOR cheap cleverly-distilled (organic) plantation oud oils.

Yes, but I disagree with that framing. You stressed 'cheap' and 'technique', that to me is too narrow a focus.
Plantation wood also produces incense grade oud. I think there are possibilities to explore within plantation oud, throughout the entire value scale.
I also assume there is more plantation out there than stated. Admission and re-evaluation might be liberating.

And once again, if you don't have contact info of distillers, shoot me a PM, I'm happy to share some. Listing them here would violate the forum rules.
And ya know what... only for you, I will give the option to get a free wood chip for 0.5g each of Royal Lao and Nashila (instead of full bottles).

I will PM you regarding distillers.

Thank you for the offer to get an oil/chip pairing, I accept.

 

[powdernose]

“ I appreciate the fact that you are trying to sort things out and get things clear from the consumer perspective , by the way. I remain interested in understanding to what degree regional profiles reflect biology versus human methodologies of extraction. But things haven’t really gotten clear so far

And I don’t think we will get much farther. Industry is young. With all due respect, the aesthetic of the majority on the forum is uniform and overall knowledge of all of us is little and there is so much BS to comb thru and so much politics etc. is like swimming in mud.

Nor will they, unless ouddicts continually strive in that direction.
It is certainly possible. More so when less people end up falling hook, line and sinker for oud marketing.

Having said that How I wish we had Chinese Japanese French and fortunate old timer ME oud heads and more south East Asians on this forum to tell us about their take their vision their approach and their understandings.

That would be nice.

Regarding regional smells then yes, there is a general feel to each region that I'm starting to pick up on based on oils labelled as from that reason, but it's obviously more complex than that, with the mixed woods as Taha points out . So I am reading this thread with an open mind hoping to take in everyone's points but I don't feel that I have anything to add

Keeping an open mind is key. Being a bit critical about what you process also helps.
I appreciate you and @Grega and @alcolado glacial joining in, sharing thoughts big or small.

Back to Muana for a sec, I get it in manipur/imphal oils and all Bhutan except one oil called muana zen. This note is for me vanilla and half half cream mixed rooibos tea slightly gently sweetened by brown sugar or a very soft mellow honey. This is good enough for me. 9 oils that all supposedly carry this note. 8 of 9 have something In common and it is this note I described above. Would you not draw the same conclusion I have based on this?

I understand the reasoning, but no one else can be expected to make that association.
So every time you use the descriptor 'muana note' you actually need to qualify it.
i.e muana note (vanilla/cream/rooibos/honey)

take rakhawah that I have tried and have worn it even few more times after the test was over. It too is a Borneo oil. And before knowing the origin it was my number 1 oil of the flight. It still is. But I dont call it a Borneo as it is a Malay/cambodi/hindi origin oil to my nose. I see nothing of Borneo in it and I have tried well over a couple of dozen Borneo oils, wood, incense.

Exactly, it was my no.1 oil of the flight too, and it still is

Firstly It is important to remember that when we smell wood on charcoal/heater we are smelling notes from three main sources in that piece of wood; Wood Fibres, Oil, Resin. The heat we apply to the wood heats these elements causing them to release the fragrant compounds. As the temperature rises and times passes the compounds continue to rise at different time intervals with different intensity giving us the varied experience in notes and profiles.

Totally. I do think that the wood fibre aroma is being over-stressed here though, which is why I object to the 'firewood' term in a way.
Non-fragrant wood fibres heated up hardly offer much of a distraction in aroma profile, even in combustion, the oil and resin intensity and volatility overpower the wood.
Also to be fair I think the primary aim (of those attempting this) is to best approximate chips on low heat, where the volatile oil should be the most dominant aroma. I hope the expectation is not, 'oh wow they smell exactly the same', but rather, 'they match up well'.

Secondly, from experience and from science, the final oil shares more scent similarities with the wood that has the most amount of oil not the wood that is the highest in the incense scale.
When analysing an oil from a perfumery perspective where one removes the hat of happy feels and puts on a more analytical hat. The detail, variety, intensity of an oil is dependent on the presence of fragrant compounds and their concentration in the oil. Which type of wood gives the highest concentration of fragrant compounds is not related to whether that wood is incense grade or not. Rather it is related to the wood with the presence of oil with higher content of fragrant compounds.

Thanks for the clarification.
How do you assess oil content and oil quality pre-distillation?

If anyone thinks they have smelt everything Malaysian, than try Marjaan. That can't be put down to distillation 'trickery'. There is a lot that can be done with distillations, however the backbone, the DNA, the core of the oil cant be changed.
.

Yes, I'm not a proponent of typicity as a marker for quality. Through the course of this thread several issues have been raised which address how problematic it is to rate an oil for such a metric simply by sniffing it.
I also appreciate variation, and surprise. Marjaan is a good example, an oil that can still surprise and perplex even veteran ouddicts, in a positive way.
What makes Marjaan so different?

 

[Shabby]

I root for guys like @tyson and @Shabby who have taken to distilling fragrant material and can begin to see how the raw materials translate into oils.

We have a difficult time identifying high grade oils as many times we are comparing apples to oranges. There have been instances such as A.) Same batch wood soaked and cooked in different vessel materials, Ensar's Oud Mostafa Experment, in which same wood batch was divided, soaked in clay, plastic, or ceramic and cooked in copper, steel, or copper/steel, the oils gave chance to see influence of soak/apparatus material on oil scent profile of that wood. B.) AgarAura's sister batches such as Lao trio of Dao, Keo, and Royal Lao, large batch wood divided by grade and cooked to give the opportunity to see the influence of wood grade on oil scent profile of that wood. Both a more apples to apples comparison between the oils, those are the exception. The norm is for comparing oils that are unrelated other than coming from agarwood .

It seems some believe that characteristics of oud are dependent on another. That complexity, longevity, projection, a good scent profile, etc. are dependent on the grade of wood; and things like possible scent notes/profile are dependent on region. IMO none of those things are dependent, rather they are mutually inclusive; events that may occur simultaneously, not dependent.

100% Bingo. I had some thoughts a while ago about posting a review of a particular oil that is difficult to describe and asked myself, "what will I say"? The answer was that it would be the shortest oud review in the history of the boards, as I'd simply say it smells like oud.

What I find peculiar is that if I go to any oud selling page I'll see oils smelling like (close approximation) rose, musk, leather, spice, green, red, fig, molasses, lemon, dried fruits, honey, licorice, sugar, etc., which are not in the oil, scientifically. Yet it's misleading when someone says an oil smells like (close approximation) what it was distilled from; agarwood. My dear, I've heard it all it seems.

Well, I can say one thing as someone who has now done a few amateur distillations...

I’m rather convinced that anyone who detects a ‘copper note’ in an oil, without having distilled in copper, is enjoying a walk down imagination lane.

There may be certain broad characteristics that can be seen from afar. But what of the true effect of the alloy - the warmth it lends, the ‘fuzziness’ as Taha puts it, not to mention the shape of the pots and the condenser, the coldness and ‘life’ in the water and the phase of the moon, the humidity in the air...you will notice every energetic influence on your oil, including most importantly your own awareness of what you are doing.

If you think distillation can be over-romanticised, I would say this is a severe blockage in the intuitive faculty. You are going directly from the formal to the formless - taking a raw material and using the alchemy of fire and water to rematerialise the spirit of a natural material, itself already essential (tree sap, for instance)! How much more romantic could it get?!!

Having said all that as though it were obvious, it was only when I was sitting with @Taha at around 11pm as Hindustan 1 was being distilled that I realised: this is pure magic. This is spirit meet spirit, and a courtship with the ideal world of shapes (mathematical forms - a spherical pot, spiral condenser, upward/downward steam path) and archetypes (categorisation of salient qualities) and elements (substantial energies).

This is also where typicity comes in, as it tells you about the salient qualities of a region, which the distiller must respond to with the best use of form. There is an element of subjectivity in this, which is where the soul of the distiller comes in, however there are also objective differences in the qualities of different regions. Vietnamese is balanced, Hindi is grounding etc.

If you do not pay attention to typicity, you are simply not being present with your raw materials, you are superimposing your imagination and fantasy onto something which has a far more profound story to tell (the story of nature itself, of how this particular smell was born in this particular place). But, if you work with it, that is where the human being is complementary to nature herself, and the finest result is produced.

 

[Mr.P]

I don’t have much of substance to add. Reading all of this, it seems like the science is just lacking. What we have are huge piles of anecdotal evidence but no scientific consensus since the knowledge is generated in the context of competitive business and not shared intellectual pursuit. I think the potential gold rush makes collaboration beyond the most superficial levels difficult.

The problem is there are so many variables from batch to batch. The size of the scientific study that would be needed to clear up this typicity question is daunting.

As for theoretical vs. hands-on. Well, my students tell me they “know” from direct personal experience that sugar get them high. They all know this first hand, but it simply isn’t true. They have not controlled for food coloring, mind set, placebo, etc. and they will NEVER know if no one gets rigorous.

So far I see no signs of rigorous investigation, but lots of personal anecdotes. That’s just the state of the knowledge I guess?

 

[kooolaid79]

Yesterday I received a sample of the Nashila wood. When I was able to heat it last night, oh my it was a exact match of the oil. After the first initial hit, I quickly opened my bottle of Nashila and was shocked on how identical the aroma of wood and oil were.
All the colorful notes present in the oil were also present in the wood.
It was really fascinating to see, how AgarAura was able to capture the aroma of wood inside the oil. Truly a genius at work!

 

[Rai Munir]

It is useless to compare the wood and oil side-by-side because there will be zero resemblance, except if the raw material was true incense grade (which, as I stated above, is foolish, and if we are talking actual chips then those oils are gonna be prohibitively costly). Secondly, not all vendors live in SE Asia, so how can you expect them to share the raw material for every single batch?

Yesterday I received a sample of the Nashila wood. When I was able to heat it last night, oh my it was a exact match of the oil. After the first initial hit, I quickly opened my bottle of Nashila and was shocked on how identical the aroma of wood and oil were.
All the colorful notes present in the oil were also present in the wood.
It was really fascinating to see, how AgarAura was able to capture the aroma of wood inside the oil. Truly a genius at work!

I am curious about Nashila. Of course, I will definitely try it once because it is the Hindi Oud. One witness is there that the wood is 'true incense grade'; otherwise, the oil and the heated chip aroma would have not been identical.

 

[Rai Munir]

I didn't go to that extreme. I also made no demands

In fact, IO offered the Oudwood chip along with the oil Shah Jahan to evaluate the quality of oil and the wood distilled. It really worked. Of course, if enough raw material is there, and then that is worth sending as well, and then the seller/ vendor/ distiller is very much confident about the oil, the seller/ vendor/ distiller would definitely send a chip. In any respect, it is beneficial for him/ her. I think EO also offers chips if one wants to try the wood as well. But not to all, and not all times.

Wood grade, offer wood when possible+, scent notes, average longevity+, projection+, GCMS+(certainly not always feasible, but should be mandatory)

Of course, if possible. And it is possible. Otherwise, when some vendor mentions that the oil smells just like a heated Oudwood chip becomes a trivial and hum drum statement. For example, there're the descriptions of oils:
1. "... (X Oil) instead smells like the vapor emitted from a very gently heated (not burned) high grade agarwood chip. No harsh burnt aroma, no acrid or abrasive notes whatsoever. Just oudiness. Sweet, sweet oudiness."

2. "That’s the quality of the wood that went into the boilers you smell, as well as the treatment of that wood in our signature (X brand) style, stripped of all experimentation and techniqueing."

So, if it is asked that a chip is to be offered or can be offered, it is not unjustified. Especially in this Oud era where Oud smells everything else other than Oudwood.

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

I am feeling at my most eloquent tonight (English is my 3rd language and with the late move to Canada, my written English sadly isn’t where I like it to be, But I try...)

Pardon some of the repeats.

what can I say, the typicity factor is pretty important to me. Again I don’t ALWAYS want to wear oud that is identical to scent of gentle wood heating much like I also don’t want to only burn these new age, single origin wood, with no other ingredient, incenses. Some of the blends like translucent path are masterpieces. Or fu in incenses or the entire seijudo kyara line. But I applaud them. Like sashimi vs elaborate molecular gastronomy; the raw beauty, the simplicity and minimalism, the gentle respectful attitude toward nature (Japanese come to mind), these oils speak to me profoundly. Other times I want the wow factor and see the distillers signature but so long as it doesn’t overshadow the origin. I.e. I don’t want the frame to take attention away from the painting or worse the frame covering part of the painting and all too frequently seen frame completely masking the original work! Is it an “art” gallery or “frame” gallery.

Very successful oils that are true to their origin and also clearly belong to a man ( the tracibility and provenance is mind boggling) are:

Al malek al malayzi. Even rubaie. LAyth all have aso

Ensar with his oriscent and sultan signature but also the heavy base yanked to the top behavior.

Taha and the gen 3

Adam with having an in betweener light handed delicate touch (smaller sample size than rest)

And Abdullah of IO i have a feeling what his touch does, but need a few more oils to be able to be more definitive. @Abdullah if you can kindly share with us which released and unreleased oils are your work.

These are often my top oils.

But when this quality goes to another level with even more of the feedstock ingredients shining, I am at my happiest: Hindustan 1, royal malinau, al Malek al ceeni, shah jahan, Nha Trang Ltd, royal Guallam, Kyara LTD...

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

I root for guys like @tyson and @Shabby who have taken to distilling fragrant material and can begin to see how the raw materials translate into oils.

We have a difficult time identifying high grade oils as many times we are comparing apples to oranges. There have been instances such as A.) Same batch wood soaked and cooked in different vessel materials, Ensar's Oud Mostafa Experment, in which same wood batch was divided, soaked in clay, plastic, or ceramic and cooked in copper, steel, or copper/steel, the oils gave chance to see influence of soak/apparatus material on oil scent profile of that wood. B.) AgarAura's sister batches such as Lao trio of Dao, Keo, and Royal Lao, large batch wood divided by grade and cooked to give the opportunity to see the influence of wood grade on oil scent profile of that wood. Both a more apples to apples comparison between the oils, those are the exception. The norm is for comparing oils that are unrelated other than coming from agarwood .

It seems some believe that characteristics of oud are dependent on another. That complexity, longevity, projection, a good scent profile, etc. are dependent on the grade of wood; and things like possible scent notes/profile are dependent on region. IMO none of those things are dependent, rather they are mutually inclusive; events that may occur simultaneously, not dependent.

100% Bingo. I had some thoughts a while ago about posting a review of a particular oil that is difficult to describe and asked myself, "what will I say"? The answer was that it would be the shortest oud review in the history of the boards, as I'd simply say it smells like oud.

What I find peculiar is that if I go to any oud selling page I'll see oils smelling like (close approximation) rose, musk, leather, spice, green, red, fig, molasses, lemon, dried fruits, honey, licorice, sugar, etc., which are not in the oil, scientifically. Yet it's misleading when someone says an oil smells like (close approximation) what it was distilled from; agarwood. My dear, I've heard it all it seems.

I say we nominate Taha send him the funds like a kickstarter campaign go fun and hav whom do multi kit oils with us. Same wood different cooking method. Same wood different fraction. Same wood origin type, but different grade...

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

Well, I can say one thing as someone who has now done a few amateur distillations...

I’m rather convinced that anyone who detects a ‘copper note’ in an oil, without having distilled in copper, is enjoying a walk down imagination lane.

There may be certain broad characteristics that can be seen from afar. But what of the true effect of the alloy - the warmth it lends, the ‘fuzziness’ as Taha puts it, not to mention the shape of the pots and the condenser, the coldness and ‘life’ in the water and the phase of the moon, the humidity in the air...you will notice every energetic influence on your oil, including most importantly your own awareness of what you are doing.

If you think distillation can be over-romanticised, I would say this is a severe blockage in the intuitive faculty. You are going directly from the formal to the formless - taking a raw material and using the alchemy of fire and water to rematerialise the spirit of a natural material, itself already essential (tree sap, for instance)! How much more romantic could it get?!!

Having said all that as though it were obvious, it was only when I was sitting with @Taha at around 11pm as Hindustan 1 was being distilled that I realised: this is pure magic. This is spirit meet spirit, and a courtship with the ideal world of shapes (mathematical forms - a spherical pot, spiral condenser, upward/downward steam path) and archetypes (categorisation of salient qualities) and elements (substantial energies).

This is also where typicity comes in, as it tells you about the salient qualities of a region, which the distiller must respond to with the best use of form. There is an element of subjectivity in this, which is where the soul of the distiller comes in, however there are also objective differences in the qualities of different regions. Vietnamese is balanced, Hindi is grounding etc.

If you do not pay attention to typicity, you are simply not being present with your raw materials, you are superimposing your imagination and fantasy onto something which has a far more profound story to tell (the story of nature itself, of how this particular smell was born in this particular place). But, if you work with it, that is where the human being is complementary to nature herself, and the finest result is produced.

Candidate for top 10 post of the year. Hell yeah. More of this pls.

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

Yesterday I received a sample of the Nashila wood. When I was able to heat it last night, oh my it was a exact match of the oil. After the first initial hit, I quickly opened my bottle of Nashila and was shocked on how identical the aroma of wood and oil were.
All the colorful notes present in the oil were also present in the wood.
It was really fascinating to see, how AgarAura was able to capture the aroma of wood inside the oil. Truly a genius at work!
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I have to agree fully with brother kool. He is stating what is being registered by the nose. Hard to beleive but the wood and the oil both have these traits. I saw that for myself last night. The pink the blue the yellow. I see way less black and the smoke albeit I know is not literal, still doesn’t register with me, but the rest is spot on.

Brother kool, like me, wears his heart on his sleeve so don’t mistaken his over-enthusiasm like some have mistaken mine for ensar. Dont read above and be dissmisive of doubting hyperbole or worst: wild imagination. Cough up the dollars and see it for yourself. Don’t take my word for it. See it for yourself.

 

[kooolaid79]

I have to agree fully with brother kool. He is stating what is being registered by the nose. Hard to beleive but the wood and the oil both have these traits. I saw that for myself last night. The pink the blue the yellow. I see way less black and the smoke albeit I know is not literal, still doesn’t register with me, but the rest is spot on.

Brother kool, like me, wears his heart on his sleeve so don’t mistaken his over-enthusiasm like some have mistaken mine for ensar. Dont read above and be dissmisive of doubting hyperbole or worst: wild imagination. Cough up the dollars and see it for yourself. Don’t take my word for it. See it for yourself.

Thank you for your kind words Sir!

 

[Al Shareef Oudh]

Thanks for the clarification.
How do you assess oil content and oil quality pre-distillation?




Yes, I'm not a proponent of typicity as a marker for quality. Through the course of this thread several issues have been raised which address how problematic it is to rate an oil for such a metric simply by sniffing it.
I also appreciate variation, and surprise. Marjaan is a good example, an oil that can still surprise and perplex even veteran ouddicts, in a positive way.
What makes Marjaan so different?

We run a pilot run on the batch, from there we can decide the parameters for the main distillation.

I agree with you that using typicity as a measuring stick is problematic. When we have the numerous variant species, the unique effect of the weather and soil of each location on the variant species creating further multiples of variances, to expect all of that variation to simply fit a typicity box is denying the trees their individuality. Secondly, the smells like wood/true to wood/represents wood argument is misleading for the very reason that it is used as an extension to give greater value, rather than a comparison. The argument perceives that an oil being 'true to the wood' is of a higher standard, whilst that isnt the case. The quality of an oil is measured by the concentration of the fragrant compounds and its complexity.

Marjan it was a rarer species.

@Rai Munir

I am rather curious to know your thoughts on this statement Shabby made in his post "I’m rather convinced that anyone who detects a ‘copper note’ in an oil, without having distilled in copper, is enjoying a walk down imagination lane." I recall some months back you were talking about the copper note and how you know of it due to the many copper utensils you have.

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

I don’t have much of substance to add. Reading all of this, it seems like the science is just lacking. What we have are huge piles of anecdotal evidence but no scientific consensus since the knowledge is generated in the context of competitive business and not shared intellectual pursuit. I think the potential gold rush makes collaboration beyond the most superficial levels difficult.

The problem is there are so many variables from batch to batch. The size of the scientific study that would be needed to clear up this typicity question is daunting.

As for theoretical vs. hands-on. Well, my students tell me they “know” from direct personal experience that sugar get them high. They all know this first hand, but it simply isn’t true. They have not controlled for food coloring, mind set, placebo, etc. and they will NEVER know if no one gets rigorous.

So far I see no signs of rigorous investigation, but lots of personal anecdotes. That’s just the state of the knowledge I guess?

There is more knowledge residing lots more but sadly not in English and worse there seems to be a elitist/secretive nature to it with the few select Japanese/Chinese/Singaporeans I have crossed paths with.

To be clear plenty of knowledge on the wood. Not oil. That seems to be lacking big time but that’s cause the oldest cultures who enjoy agarwood form partake In scenting themselves or studying oils.

When I met with my very good Chinese friends great grandma (hand me down museum level aloeswood collectors) and he was translating... I asked about oil from the wood and the scent etc. and she was confused because for them the oil is medicine. She mentioned asthma, skin rash, fungal infections like jock strap, and bad gut bacteria/bugs!

They spoke like these are old ancient tried and true facts.

I wish I could verify. I think our best best is finding singsporean old timers to join the forum as the Japanese and Chinese rarely speak English or feel comfortable writing in it. Anyone knows anyone?

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

I am curious about Nashila. Of course, I will definitely try it once because it is the Hindi Oud. One witness is there that the wood is 'true incense grade'; otherwise, the oil and the heated chip aroma would have not been identical.

Quick word of warning that it is even more uniquely different than Hindustan 1. The agolocha and likely high mountain nagaland(we don’t know specific area as Taha explained keeping it a secret for a while...) origin is evident or at least registers as such to my nose, but otherwise this oil is like a great abstract post modern art creation

 

[Rasoul Salehi]

We run a pilot run on the batch, from there we can decide the parameters for the main distillation.

I agree with you that using typicity as a measuring stick is problematic. When we have the numerous variant species, the unique effect of the weather and soil of each location on the variant species creating further multiples of variances, to expect all of that variation to simply fit a typicity box is denying the trees their individuality. Secondly, the smells like wood/true to wood/represents wood argument is misleading for the very reason that it is used as an extension to give greater value, rather than a comparison. The argument perceives that an oil being 'true to the wood' is of a higher standard, whilst that isnt the case. The quality of an oil is measured by the concentration of the fragrant compounds and its complexity.

Marjan it was a rarer species.

@Rai Munir

I am rather curious to know your thoughts on this statement Shabby made in his post "I’m rather convinced that anyone who detects a ‘copper note’ in an oil, without having distilled in copper, is enjoying a walk down imagination lane." I recall some months back you were talking about the copper note and how you know of it due to the many copper utensils you have.

Quick clarification: I do NOT say or beleive an oil perceived as capturing the scent of the wood gently heated is of higher quality or standard. No no. I am merely saying is of higher aesthetic pleasure for “ME”. It just touches my heart and my mind differently. Just me. I do not for a minute push this on others. I really don’t. If my words have been perceived as such, it maybe my excitement and over enthusiasm. Nothing more.

I love variety. It is the spice of life. I gravitate to sashimi or Uber simply prepared food most of the time but I like my 30 different spice bowl of chili and the most layered complex curries too.