Blind Oud Test - Results And Discussion

Discussion in 'General' started by powdernose, Nov 5, 2018.

  1. Rasoul Salehi

    Rasoul Salehi Oud Fanatic

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    So very well put brother pearl. Quantifying a qualitative experience is just plain wrong. It can be helpful to a certain extent but it should not be taken to the bank like it truly powerful evidence.

    As for most expensive ouds being seen as such if you open up the Dropbox link provided you will see actual price line vs average perceived price. While on this point it is important to be even more clear on perceive as in what we wish for it to be or what we think it is. I provided both price points to powdernose knowing that what I perceive as value should be vs what is are different. Naturally...
     
  2. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

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    @Rasoul Salehi there's something I've been thinking about regarding the test and winning from the first time I saw mention of it. The test, as far as my little understanding of it's intent goes, was not conducted to declare any oil a winner, by inference that would mean that some were losers, and that is not the case. However, the results do demonstrate that among the five people who reviewed it, Fajr was the favorite in that group as I stated before.

    Wild versus cultivated has been pushed, and likely corrupted as buzz words. Oils like AO and OM5 are better than many wild oils from the same vendor IMO, I can't discern that they are cultivated, and likely most can't without being told. An oil not fitting into a "typical" category as to scent profile is not a fault and may have nothing to do with vendor "trickery". One of my favorite Cambodians is Au Luong which is not typical of the region. We both agreed that Kinam Rouge smells more typically Cambo and that Kuzen smells more typically Vietnamese, have either of those oils failed?

    As for the most expensive oils being perceived as such, I still don't see it. BD is actually $500/g with average perception of $212/g; FHI is actually $366/g with average perception is $173/g.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  3. Rasoul Salehi

    Rasoul Salehi Oud Fanatic

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    I need to sleep on this and see if I can budge. I don’t want to dismiss it b/c you have a point. It would be awesome to hear from jawed @Al Shareef Oudh on the wood, the method and him and his teams own take on the oil.

    Also a question for all vendors and those familiar with gcms tests of wild vs cultivated wood. Is there a compound or two or three that exist in one and absent in another? Or is it not a matter of zero and 1, and more about how much of it exists. It would also be great if those more familiar can touch on. Inner of aromatic compounds found in cultivated vs wild. Hope the answer is not it depends and I know there is no such thing as just wild. Was it any hole, lightning strike, fungal and such jnfecfion etc... all make a difference and yes purposely inflicting wound Gia. Free but left for 30 years would be I guess kinda wild,... but let’s be practical. @Taha hoping you can chime in pls
     
  4. Rai Munir

    Rai Munir Musk Man

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    :praying:That's it.
     
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  5. Rai Munir

    Rai Munir Musk Man

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    None is a loser, none is a winner. Because the test was not oriented for the purpose to promote or demote some vendor or oil. So, it is not a big issue why BD and FHI couldn't be perceived superior.

    Wild versus cultivated, hmmm. Again no issue at all. Wild oud has no divine and royal prerogative to always smell superior. A wild wood oil, but poorly managed and distilled, and a cultivated wood oil but artistically managed and distilled. This aspect can never be neglected, if at all wild is destined to be superior. (Though I myself vote for wild wood, but Assam Organic is there as well.) So, wild vs organic is no issue at all.

    This is not quantification at all, if one thinks over the format of the test. Some point of reference is always needed to brush away the haziest notions of one's cancerous and overly personalistic reviews. If at all such blind tests are to quantify, Oud Review section is the best example of tumorous growth of subjective quality ridden cells. Deconstruction of Oud oil is an extreme and worst form of quantitative approach. Qualitative approach is not to relate something with some external agents that are mostly absent in oils. If, somehow or other, we could benefit from both quantitative and qualitative approaches, I am sure it will be a great achievement. Egalitarian approach is a lullaby to evade what can be worrisome and irksome.

    I strongly hope that the suggestions being posted will be incorporated in Blind Test format. I am very pleased to read the posts in this thread, and am sure respected @powdernose would have saved these posts for further improvement. After all, the second phase is to be planned.

    Peace and cheers!
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  6. Joe King

    Joe King AttitOud

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    :praying::Thumbsup: wise words
     
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  7. powdernose

    powdernose Oud Sprite

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    Sure, we can flip the coin :)
    But either way, I think we should focus on relativity.
    Also, I don't think we should have superhuman expectations of the nose.


    I mean in the context of trials,
    I didn't expand beyond that.


    And those were the 2 highest averages across 14 oud oils. In the context of the test they were perceived as the most expensive oils of the bunch.
    Relativity.
    Why should perceived values perfectly match actual market values anyway?
    Perceived values is also another way of looking at the price ranges Ouddicts are more comfortable in.


    True, it wasn't. But one purpose was to see if opinions of the Panels could converge to give clear results.
    That happened in three cases. Personally, I'm delighted that there were 3 oils that managed to unify the Panel,
    and more so that one of them was such a surprise.
    I was at all times fully aware of the possibility that the results (all of them) could have ended up being a mess.
    They didn't and that is super cool.


    And I'm sure your suggestions will be welcomed.
    I'm definitely interested in their specifics.
    I just like to remind everybody that this is oud, and one has to keep in mind scale and financial feasibility.


    Believe it or not, I pitched that idea for version 1.0.
    Quite a few people were more willing to stand back, let me go at it alone, and see if it could be done.
    For those looking for purpose to this test, one purpose is just that, to show that it could be done.
    And I don't mean that in a selfish way, but rather that it is possible to have such testing formats in the oud community.
    That people are already discussing future formats, is evidence that this purpose was successfully fulfilled.


    I like that idea.


    Yes, that would be welcome.
    I'd like to hear your specific suggestions for the parameters you'd like to introduce.
     
  8. Grega

    Grega Oud Fan

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    I completely understand your passion for wild wood. The idea of the wood growing somewhere deep in the jungle, where seldom man has been, indeed presents a very attractive image. But for me the idea of a properly cultivated wood from a farmer who loves what he/she does and is tending to the trees with care, respect and skill, in no way presents a less attractive image. Especially considering that such a plantation represents a safer and a much more stable source of income. Man is part of nature as well and the fruits of his stewardship of nature can indeed be great. So I don't get the McDonalds comparison. Or the tomato one. Heirloom tomatoes are the cultivated tomatoes.
     
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  9. powdernose

    powdernose Oud Sprite

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    And yet the practice is both prevalent and defining in the wine industry.
    In coffee cupping too.
    So you already live it.

    Do you realise how unfair it is to critique an oil you've never tried?
    I also think that is a supremely bad analogy.

    Perhaps you should smell it. It does smell like a Borneo.
    And when you try it, you shouldn't feel pressured into liking it, perhaps you wont.
    Another purpose of this test was to show that we shouldn't be bound by such peer pressure,
    just because 5 other Ouddicts really liked it, doesn't mean that you should too.

    You're applying double standards here.
    Most region votes for FHI were Vietnam.
    And for Borneo Diesel, most votes were for Merauke, Gyrinops (what I thought too), so according to your reasoning, it is not true to its type.
    Also, only Aleata guessed Borneo for BD, but he also said Purple Kinam, i.e. Malaysian. I gave the full point because I thought it was close enough, but actually it is only half a point.
     
  10. Woodland Note

    Woodland Note Oud Fan

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    Yes, my nose is no longer virgin to oud thanks to this beautiful community and the kindness of some of its members. :)

    To be honest, at first I was thinking I would like to be a reviewer, probably because I just craved to try more ouds. But now since I have really a decent number of samples, and plenty still to be discovered... Well, I still crave more :D but at the same time I would just feel bad giving them points and judging. I don't feel experienced enough nor qualified in any way to do such thing. And for me each one is different, unique and very beautiful.
    Well, I’ve already tried 2 very similar ouds from the same region of Thailand province. Kind of like twins with minor differences. But still it would be difficult to make a choice between them.
    I don't compare the beauty of most beautiful girls. I don't compare which german shepherd puppy is more cute. I have preferences but some things are just not meant to be compared for me. So... That is that. ;)

    Besides... I'm already part of some kind of blind testings of oud oils. I've been gifted 13 samples by certain kind fellow and almost half of them is labeled only with a letter. And I like this idea more, I’m not pressured in any way, I will just post my various thoughts about them as I like after oudy sessions that will happen when the time is right.
    But thank you for considering me for the reviewer role, I truly appreciate it! :Thumbsup:

    I feel very honored to have been given the referee role, perhaps small but still responsible and involving some level of trust. :Thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  11. PEARL

    PEARL Guerrilla

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    So, basically what you are doing by focusing on that one line and saying that $212 and $173 are the highest averages, then interpreting that to mean they were perceived as the most expensive, is totally ignoring their actual price.

    I'm very happy you spoke of relativity, that's exactly what it is. The perceived price relative to the actual price of an individual oil, then that can be compared to others. Take BD for example, which was perceived on average as $212 and an actual price of $500. Perceived/actual=212/500, BD was perceived as being only 42.4% of it's actual price. Then take PO Sweet Trat which was perceived on average as $89 and an actual price of $26, perceived/actual=89/26, PO-ST was perceived as being 342% of its actual price. Then you can compare them relative to each other 42.4% versus 342%, which is perceived as being more expensive? That's how you have to interpret the results to make that comparison of one oil relative to another, you can not ignore their actual prices.

    MOCNITYSMNGI
     
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  12. Rasoul Salehi

    Rasoul Salehi Oud Fanatic

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    i shoulda taken a few law and more English classes. i dont think i am successfully communicating my point. my thinking is not necessarily solely logical but romantic and emotional as well. is best we hear from ASO on the method of cultivation, quality of the wood, etc.

    jist of my point is on "made" vs "realized". manipulated vs captured. tasting, smelling, looking natural vs "worked".
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  13. Rasoul Salehi

    Rasoul Salehi Oud Fanatic

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    typicity is very important, otherwise, why bother selling oils after regional, subregional and even at times down to specific sub-variety within a sub region. it is these regional unique traits that has turned many of us into oud aficionados. oud begs us to give it our time and study it for each region and cultivar has its own unique set of traits.

    let me be very clear what is in my manifesto of a great oil:
    1) is a textbook example of its region and sub cultivar
    2) has the unique signature of the distiller but one that is like a thin frame around a beautiful painting, not something that overshadows the work itself and worse obliterates it

    time factor field regardless of how its perceived can be said to connote the same thing: a desire to study it further which in my eye points out to a complexity and or intrigue in the oil that begs the student to check back again and again.

    by willy nilly i mean, the overall score should be a direct tally up of the values entered in criteria fields, not a number that jumps into our head for what we feel is fair evaluation of that oil. i am going to give this lots of thought and time and see what i can come up with. i know there wont be a perfect system and the criteria at the end of the day entirely depend on the main agenda of a test. ill share my findings when they present themselves to me. at the moment i am in discovery mode. pls dont expect a quick answer. this may take a while...


    TBC
     
  14. Rasoul Salehi

    Rasoul Salehi Oud Fanatic

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    above in bold. with much respect. my points are personal opinions. strong opinions but something that is dear to me and may be 100% useless and garbage talk to others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  15. Rai Munir

    Rai Munir Musk Man

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    Dearest Rasoul, you are dear to us all, and of course, your views as well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  16. Rasoul Salehi

    Rasoul Salehi Oud Fanatic

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    The big picture is this thing we call oud is so special so revered that has us dedicating valuable time and energy to not to mention finances. It brings out the passion in us and liveliness. Long live oud, variety in it and democracy in how we each come to enjoy its many facets. Respect and love to all.
     
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  17. PersonelHigh

    PersonelHigh Whats this Oud About?

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    Maybe it's not the thesis but for me what I gained was a recognition of what I have an affinity for and what I don't. And in that, I've noticed that my tastes have amended themselves. So for me it's been a personal refinement of my own preferences. So in essence I agree with you that basically I'm not sure what this proves. Would a different group of people have had similar results? How about more people participating in testing?
     
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  18. PersonelHigh

    PersonelHigh Whats this Oud About?

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    EEEK I find that very worrisome driving towards a score and winner. Perfumery and ouds are an art form. I fear this esstemed set of judges applying some particular numerical criteria and formula for a winner you are going to end up with oud makers all trying to make similar oils to please the palates of these blinded noses. PLEASE NO. This is not a science it's an art.
     
  19. Rasoul Salehi

    Rasoul Salehi Oud Fanatic

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    Beautifully put.
     
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  20. Ammar

    Ammar Oud Fan

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    Brilliant job you did here @powdernose. Someone can get a lot of useful information from the sheet if they are willing to. Specifically, I found that the ability of the testers in truly identifying the highest priced oils (presumably true to their quality) to be impressive nonetheless, simply because it shows that the noses were able to identify the presumed highest quality oils distilled from the best grade wood. Guessing the "true" price tag set by vendor is a different story.

    Congrats...
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
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