A question for everyone

[oudlover]

I want to ask a question to you guys.
Some vendors say on their website that certain oils are sold out but in fact they still have those oils available at inflated price compared to the original price of the oil.
Does this practice Fall within laws of Islam?
I am not talking about the investors who buy oils as an investment and the goal is to make some profit. This question applies only to the vendors.

 

[Ouddict]

I want to ask a question to you guys.
Some vendors say on their website that certain oils are sold out but in fact they still have those oils available at inflated price compared to the original price of the oil.
Is this practice Allowed in Islam?
I am not talking about the investors who buy oils as an investment and the goal is to make some profit. This question applies only to the vendors.

This is a question that an Islamic scholar needs to clarify to be honest. Does anyone here have access to one, who can answer the question? You have to name the scholar in question if an answer is provided. Thanks.

 

[oudlover]

I am looking forward to get an answer to the question

 

[AbasFrag]

Wow this one I need to follow. Very interesting

 

[Ouddict]

Ok, I have submitted your question to someone and am waiting for them to reply.

You could also ask Shaykh Abdul Wahhab on Gaharu - I believe he may have studied in an Islamic Seminary.

 

[F4R1d0uX]

The question asked as it is maybe obvious enough to be answered by average muslim... even non muslim actualy...

If oil aviable only from private collectionner and seller is part of private collectionner it should be sold under sellers name and not company name...

This way is kinda misleading buyer but I'm not knowledgable enough to say if it's allowed or not (I have a strong conviction on the answer but not knowledgable enough to spread it publicly ).

After all it's a marketing strategy maybe reserved for people who can afford it so if they are happy with this, X or Y company is free to use this marketing (not in the religious point of view just "human being point of view")

Up to people to be aware that oud is a RISKY investment, but if people pleasure is to offer themselves a 100 000$ oud and oud from seller X please them, well it's their pleasure and their right ...

 

[Habz786]

My thoughts are the wording should be changed so its clearer as it can lead to issues. Final bottle sold should mean that, i would have it as "sold out on website for now maybe available later" or something which is transparent. For example previously an oil was final bottle sold, in the market places it was up for grabs just over cost price. People purchased the oil and a day later it was on the website on special offer. This upset customers as they felt cheated in a way, i doubt its there to intentionally cheat just the wording isnt too good. Best to ask a scholar on the Islamic view point ln this matter thats just my 2 pence.

 

[Bengal Roots]

I want to ask a question to you guys.
Some vendors say on their website that certain oils are sold out but in fact they still have those oils available at inflated price compared to the original price of the oil.
Does this practice Fall within laws of Islam?
I am not talking about the investors who buy oils as an investment and the goal is to make some profit. This question applies only to the vendors.

Very Interesting!

Oulover: Some vendors say on their website that certain oils are sold out but in fact they still have those oils available at inflated price compared to the original price of the oil.
Zak: Now since you want to open the can of worms. Please can you name the vendors who practice this & let them answer the reason behind. If they can quote inflated price why can't they answer this question?

Oudlover: Does this practice Fall within laws of Islam?
Zak: Why direct this question with a particular FAITH?
Zak: Does this practice is ALLOWED in other FAITH?
Zak: What FAITH got to do with OUD?

Oudlover: I am not talking about the investors who buy oils as an investment and the goal is to make some profit.
Zak: Why not? May be investor is an individual who is working HANDS in GLOVE with dealer.

Lets just enjoy Oud on a common ground & to pay the price for the product is TOTALLY in hands of the customer.

 

[oudlover]

I mentioned religion Islam because some vendors give references to Prophet Mohamad in description of their Ouds. The vendor I dealt with openly says that he follows Islamic faith.
Sorry I don't want to name any particular vendor though .
Vendor is little bit different than investor in the sense that investor is stockpiling oud oils after finding out that vendor has mentioned on the website that oil is sold out. If there is plenty of oil available investor may not be interested in buying that perticular oil.
The only question I have is that is it ok to tell people hat Oil is Sold out but still have oil to be sold later at premium price. In that situation even the investor is gonna get hurt who naively bought an oil which was supposed to be sold out.
This question should not offend anyone and if it is acceptable practice then some of the vendors should answer my question . If it is acceptable practice I am ok with it.

 

[Aleata]

Very Interesting!

Oulover: Some vendors say on their website that certain oils are sold out but in fact they still have those oils available at inflated price compared to the original price of the oil.
Zak: Now since you want to open the can of worms. Please can you name the vendors who practice this & let them answer the reason behind. If they can quote inflated price why can't they answer this question?

Oudlover: Does this practice Fall within laws of Islam?
Zak: Why direct this question with a particular FAITH?
Zak: Does this practice is ALLOWED in other FAITH?
Zak: What FAITH got to do with OUD?

Oudlover: I am not talking about the investors who buy oils as an investment and the goal is to make some profit.
Zak: Why not? May be investor is an individual who is working HANDS in GLOVE with dealer.

Lets just enjoy Oud on a common ground & to pay the price for the product is TOTALLY in hands of the customer.

Well said !

 

[Ouddict]

Very Interesting!

Oulover: Some vendors say on their website that certain oils are sold out but in fact they still have those oils available at inflated price compared to the original price of the oil.
Zak: Now since you want to open the can of worms. Please can you name the vendors who practice this & let them answer the reason behind. If they can quote inflated price why can't they answer this question?

Oudlover: Does this practice Fall within laws of Islam?
Zak: Why direct this question with a particular FAITH?
Zak: Does this practice is ALLOWED in other FAITH?
Zak: What FAITH got to do with OUD?

Oudlover: I am not talking about the investors who buy oils as an investment and the goal is to make some profit.
Zak: Why not? May be investor is an individual who is working HANDS in GLOVE with dealer.

Lets just enjoy Oud on a common ground & to pay the price for the product is TOTALLY in hands of the customer.

Presumably OudLover has dealt with a vendor who he feels should live up to his publicly professsed standards. He is perfectly entitled to ask for the Islamic ruling on a business practise in the case where a vendor openly makes clear that he follows Islamic standards in trade.

In my view, from what he has said, this isn't about religion per se, but it is about clarification of a certain business practise in the light of Islamic Jurisprudence.

 

[Oudamberlove]

I barely have time to do my listings on ebay, so I only decant around three vials at a time, so when 2 are sold, ebay automatically says "last one", but in fact, I have more. When I'm down to one, I squeeze a little time to decant some more again, then revise the listing to add the new decants.

Gee, if I had more time, there is so much more that I would be listing. I have Sandalwood wood, Sandalwood oils, incense powders, tinctures, macerations, mukhallats, etc. etc.

As for some Artisan Vendors, I don't know their agenda, but ultimately, the final sale is in the customer's hand (if I have the money) ( all that I sold on ebay was just used to buy more oils, agarwood, and sandalwood )

I even get denied when I try to increase my credit limit on my credit cards. It seems all I qualify for is Oud Addict of the year award

 

[peter4ptv]

I barely have time to do my listings on ebay, so I only decant around three vials at a time, so when 2 are sold, ebay automatically says "last one", but in fact, I have more. When I'm down to one, I squeeze a little time to decant some more again, then revise the listing to add the new decants.

Gee, if I had more time, there is so much more that I would be listing. I have Sandalwood wood, Sandalwood oils, incense powders, tinctures, macerations, mukhallats, etc. etc.

As for some Artisan Vendors, I don't know their agenda, but ultimately, the final sale is in the customer's hand (if I have the money) ( all that I sold on ebay was just used to buy more oils, agarwood, and sandalwood )

I even get denied when I try to increase my credit limit on my credit cards. It seems all I qualify for is Oud Addict of the year award

 

[Ouddict]

View attachment 1422

 

[halim]

@oudlover i have a number of chaykh sulayman ar ruheyli he have a chair in the masjid of prophet muhammad sws and he make question and response so if you need i ask him no problem brother
but if maybe this vendor have ome quantity like 30 g for sell and other 30g at left for sell it in futur with other price maybe the "sold out" mean the first quantity at sell in this periode but the better IMO ask ahl dhikr in kountoum la t3lamoon

 

[oudlover]

Halim would you please send me the contact information and I will try to contact that scholar. Thank you for your help

 

[Rai Munir]

First thing: Jurisprudence, FIQH, does not address hypothetical situation. It addresses the complexity being faced by an individual or the whole society.

Respected Aleata (*Oudlover- sorry I'v to refer to respected Oudlover) has pointed out an important issue, which, in my opinion, is not hypothetical but concrete.

1- The foremost important thing regarding business is ‘profit’. In Islamic Jurisprudence, PROFITEERING is more acute than USURY. Of course, ‘profiteering’ is to be defined, and it has already been defined by the experts. No self-suggested definition is plausible in ‘fiqh’.

2- Second, ‘niyyah’- intention- is the very foundation of each and every deed. When the website reads ‘SOLD OUT’, but in reality, kept/saved for future. A little bit acceptable it is. But the problem arises here; that very vendor does create HYPE through so called FAIR MEANS to create price HIKE. And then that oil is offered privately. HYPE for HIKE is unethical. Because it is falsehood.

3- If someone has bought oils keeping in view to re-sale after some definite or indefinite time, that person is fair and his asking for more price is not false. Moreover, it is observed that vendors themselves goad for buying more and more to re-sale oils.

4- Marketing ‘techniques’ and marketing ‘tactics’ both are different expressions. Tactics lead to falsehood. Suppose I launch an oil “La Melange”, and am articulate enough to attract people to my oil/attar. Later, I sample it to Mr. ETC for review, and generally reviews are having plus points. And If I have good relations with some forum members, my product will rock. And new customer can easily be hooked through the bait of reviews. Again false impression and maneuvering it turns to be.

5- I am sorry to say that it is observed that every new oil is presented as the best ever oil with the best wood, and it is said IN FUTURE I WON’T BE ABLE TO DISTILL SUCH OIL, and when some oil is gone from the others’ sight but that is present in personal stash and that stash is having ten tolas or so of that Gone Legend, THAT QUASI LEGEND IS APPRECIATED THAT MUCH, again a new customer/member gets hooked. If the caption SOLD OUT or LEGEND is a BAIT (and it generally is I am sorry to say), it is illegal because it is distortion of the facts for monetary benefits. It is creating false aura/magnetic field.

These points are very much obvious, whatever the religion is. Even an atheist has very definite business ethics. Profiteering is the major issue.

‘ha’adha’a indi, wa’l ilmu ind’Allah’

 

[Ouddict]

First thing: Jurisprudence, FIQH, does not address hypothetical situation. It addresses the complexity being faced by an individual or the whole society.

Respected Aleata has pointed out an important issue, which, in my opinion, is not hypothetical but concrete.

1- The foremost important thing regarding business is ‘profit’. In Islamic Jurisprudence, PROFITEERING is more acute than USURY. Of course, ‘profiteering’ is to be defined, and it has already been defined by the experts. No self-suggested definition is plausible in ‘fiqh’.

2- Second, ‘niyyah’- intention- is the very foundation of each and every deed. When the website reads ‘SOLD OUT’, but in reality, kept/saved for future. A little bit acceptable it is. But the problem arises here; that very vendor does create HYPE through so called FAIR MEANS to create price HIKE. And then that oil is offered privately. HYPE for HIKE is unethical. Because it is falsehood.

3- If someone has bought oils keeping in view to re-sale after some definite or indefinite time, that person is fair and his asking for more price is not false. Moreover, it is observed that vendor themselves goad for buying more and more to re-sale oils.

4- Marketing ‘techniques’ and marketing ‘tactics’ both are different expressions. Tactics lead to falsehood. Suppose I launch an oil “La Melange”, and am articulate enough to attract people to my oil/attar. Later, I sample it to Mr. ETC for review, and generally reviews are having plus points. And If I have good relations with some forum members, my product will rock. And new customer can easily be hooked through the bait of reviews. Again false impression and maneuvering it turns to be.

5- I am sorry to say that it is observed that every new oil is presented as the best ever oil with the best wood, and it is said IN FUTURE I WON’T BE ABLE TO DISTILL SUCH OIL, and when some oil is gone from the others’ sight but that is present is personal stash and that stash is having ten tolas or so of that Gone Legend, THAT QUASI LEGEND IS APPRECIATED THAT MUCH, again a new customer/member gets hooked. If the caption SOLD OUT or LEGEND is a BAIT (and it generally is I am sorry to say), it is illegal because it is distortion of the facts for monetary benefits. It is creating false aura/magnetic field.

These points are very much obvious, whatever the religion is. Even an atheist has very definite business ethics. Profiteering is the major issue.

‘ha’adha’a indi, wa’l ilmu ind’Allah’

At last people are seeing what I have seen since last December... it took me 9 years to see through the fog of marketing and very dubious shark sales techniques, but after seeing so many in the same position, I realised what was going on in some parts of this community.

Kudos to you Rai Munir as you spotted it far quicker than i did. Lesson learned for me. Trust, but VERIFY first and continuously.

 

[Ouddict]

Just to make it clear, all vendors on this forum are allowed here as they share the values of the forum, which is open, honest and transparent business. Fair for the vendor and the customer. IM_AU wrote a beautiful post a while back which mirrors the values of this forum.

The post from IM_AU:

From a customer perspective I just want to say a few simple things and I hope vendors should take it positively:

1. We are civilised people and do not mind paying for vendor's value addition, so please don't ask us to go to the distillers for $150/tola products - it's insulting. Neither we are begging you to give your stuff in charity, we would like to have this customer - vendor relationship graceful.
2. We want to purchase the oil where the price of oil is directly related to Cost of production plus we also want to pay for Artisan's innovation but this innovation mark up should be reasonable.
3. We also understand the cost of running business, we are not comparing your costs with direct distiller costs. We will be happy to pay a little bit more than what a non-online customer pays for the product.
4. I am not posting here to put fuel into this conversation, seriously - as a customer I don't want to know how you all vendors run your business... each business have it's own challenges and that is what you guys are also facing.
5. Just as you take a lot of risk in your business... on the other side we shouldn't forget how the person, who is hooked to your oils, go through the situations to buy the oils.
6. Importantly we want Vendors to come out of this situation clean, reason been we do not want to look stupid in front of our families whom we have convinced very strongly about justification of our expensive hobby

It's evident from Basenotes times that this price confusion is not leaving online oud community... we want our vendors to prosper and flourish but in reasonable manner - without excessively milking the online customers, if they are.

 

[firdaous]

@Ouddict I remembered this post !!! it was so meaningful and summarized my thought so well that I logged myself on gaharu to like it for approval and gratitude