peter4ptv

Member
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist", Keyser Söze as Roger "Verbal" Kint
"The greatest trick a marketing genius ever pulled is convincing the world that they're the best", Pearl

As a marketing genius, you are supposed to say you're the best and you started everything; if you don't, how can you expect anybody else to. I see no fault, business never personal when it's business and there's no sentiment in business.

Truth be told, the only thing any vendor here or there ever started was their business and afterwards some started running their mouths. People have been selling oud, sandalwood, rose, incense, musk, wood, etc. waayyy longer than any of us have been here. People have used the web as a platform to sell products longer than any oud vendor has used the web as a platform to sell product. It's not copying, it's one's chosen vocation or hobby, nothing more. If I say I started selling oud, bought it to the west, and some believe, winning. Even better when some repeat the lie. If I say I started selling and bought oud to the west and some doubt and talk about it the on boards, free publicity that keeps my name alive, winning.

If I say that people copy me, my website, my style of marketing and some believe, winning. If some doubt and talk, free publicity, winning. If some vendors seemingly IMO dumb down their site to not appear anything like mine for fear of being seen as a copier by my believers, winning. In fact bi-winning, winning over here and winning over there. Some of the vendors travel from Vietnam to Assam, Pasadena to Medina, picteresque places that deliver an experience, if I was them I'd inundate my sight with those pics and lovely prose, and the last thing I'd be thinking about is another vendor claiming I copied them. The consumer wants that; it certainly won't hurt and is not hard to do. In fact, I'd set up my site so that anytime anyone searched oud, rose, incense, wood, etc. or any other vendor, this board, my site would show in the query results.

If a vendor says this or that negatively about another vendor or somehow hurts another vendor and that vendor doesn't respond or right the wrong done to them, winning. If a vendor can talk another out of their game, winning. It's yours and if you won't, I won't, not again. Indeed the oils will talk, but there's nothing wrong with anyone talking too.

Buying any luxury item such as oud is an experience, and consumers want an experience from pre-purchase shopping to packaging and fast delivery. Go to Brown & Co. and plop down 9k on a new Submariner Date and watch them put on the white gloves and break out a bottle of champagne before they bring out the beautiful green box, and if they want to give you the full experience they'll bring out the timepiece in its original clear plastic Rolex shipping case, that way you know no one else has touched it, then they'll set up the box, hang tags and all (By the way, its gone now but nice AP on whoever that was holding that chunk of wood, hahhahahahaha).

But what do I know I'm biased in business, biased towards brilliance, success, longevity, and winning. If people want sandalwood, it's a complementary product to what I have and I can get it to sell, I'm selling it, winning. Likewise with rose, attars, mukhallats, incense, sprays, wood, etc, winning. Some are brilliant and use this forum as their own personal target market focus group, winning. The masses say we want value in oud, I diversify from my $2000+ oils and concentrate on what the consumer perceives to be higher value oils (that they likely make an even higher margin on, and most of it being near dreck), winning. Don't believe me, look at many of the recent releases, winning. When was the last time you've seen the release of a $2500> oil, long time as there's no reason, it's not what the mass market and boards are demanding. For those that still want those oils or a portion of them, I'm sure there still available.

If you think it's charity and business men are sacrificing their margin to please you, it's not. There is no doubt that this board has had an impact on price, this is something I was going to address in the "Current Oud Scene" thread, but is apt here. There are only a few ways that oud price has stabilized where it has currently, based on demand for higher value oils.
1.) Vendors are concentrating on lower priced, inferior quality oils that are perceived as higher value based on price and backed by brilliant, monster marketing campaigns that tout them as near equal to high quality oils. From what I've tried, many of the new oils are near dreck.
2.) Vendors are lowering prices of higher quality oils by subsidizing the margin with lower priced, inferior quality, high margin, fast moving oils. Balancing profits.
3.) Vendors are aligning their mission with demand for higher value oils and are changing their procurement method by getting wood several links closer to the jungle in the supply chain, instead of buying from collectors or some store on oud street in Vietnam. Buying from oud street or collectors is easier than dangerous jungle treks and getting closer to the jungle, but that ease comes at a higher price. Vendors who get closer to the jungle, going places that are potentially dangerous as evidence by the recent accounts of vendors here, are able to get high quality wood and make high quality oils for a reduced cost. The result is high quality oils on par with oils >$2500 oils, being sold at mid-range price, those are the ones that represent a truly higher value. Big recognition and respect for the vendors who are getting closer to the jungle and bringing high quality, truly high value oils to the market.
4.) Scouring the distiller minefield in hopes of finding a decent oil that can be resold at a sweet spot, perceived high value price.
5.) Lastly, remember the oud game is a dirty game, so there's theivery, deceit, backstabbing, stealing of oils, wood, etc, of that I'm sure despite not having concrete evidence. But, where there's smoke....

Some will get it, some won't.


Excellent post Pearl,
even with my bad English (as someone point it out) I almost got it 100%:Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao:

“business is business” yes but, I just will like to add that Artisanal oud business is wayyyy different than your Microsoft – IBM business.

If you are Artisanal vendor and were able to build well established business with few hundred clients this a very big achievement it shows that you have an excellent business and marketing skills, you will need to respect and treat well every single customer, even the biggest pain in the ass customer.

I do not agree with "The customer is always right" slogan, but in case of the Artisanal oud business is an exception.

Here is a brilliant and one of my favorites quotes from Warren Buffett: It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently.
 

F4R1d0uX

Resident Artisan
Excellent post Pearl,
even with my bad English (as someone point it out) I almost got it 100%:Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao:

“business is business” yes but, I just will like to add that Artisanal oud business is wayyyy different than your Microsoft – IBM business.

If you are Artisanal vendor and were able to build well established business with few hundred clients this a very big achievement it shows that you have an excellent business and marketing skills, you will need to respect and treat well every single customer, even the biggest pain in the ass customer.

I do not agree with "The customer is always right" slogan, but in case of the Artisanal oud business is an exception.

Here is a brilliant and one of my favorites quotes from Warren Buffett: It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently.

Good post my friend, as a seller, and I mention it openly I'm not shy to say to a customer : "you are headache".
Customer knows it will be said with a certain kindness.

I also won't hesitate to correct someone who repeat a false informaton in public. It's okay if I'm boycoted. I love oud too much ...
 

F4R1d0uX

Resident Artisan
"you are headache"
coming from you I will take it as a compliment:Laugh::Laugh::Laugh:
Loool yes nobody got vexed at least. Someone headache knows he/she is.
It's a kind of personality that seller must deal with and most of time I'm pleasured to have long conversations even on other topics.
A customer can be headache and be a cool individual when it comes to something else than oud :Roflmao:.
 

peter4ptv

Member
Loool yes nobody got vexed at least. Someone headache knows he/she is.
It's a kind of personality that seller must deal with and most of time I'm pleasured to have long conversations even on other topics.
A customer can be headache and be a cool individual when it comes to something else than oud :Roflmao:.
even with headache I assume you respect them and treat them well.
thought no :mouth:
:Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao::Roflmao:
 

F4R1d0uX

Resident Artisan
Looool ! Of course I have even kind of affection, it's hard to imagine especialy how i introduced myself here in the forum, but I love people in general. If you know me in real life, I'm the kind of individual who will joke with strangers in the streets and talk to any random people.
 

bhanny

Oud Fan
@powdernose most excellent post. There's a message mixed in with my sarcasm and cynicism. Bad business practice is not winning and only exists where allowed; but if allowed, winning.

I once composed a PM to Imperial Oud but I can't remember if I hit the send button. In the PM I told them not to reply, that I was thanking them for their conduct in allowing consumers to discuss oud without their interference. They show their product with no ulterior motive to bash, they answer questions when asked without offering any unsolicited "education" as if they know it all; it's called humility and professionalism. If I didn't hit the send button, I'm hitting it now, Jazak Allah Khayrun. When oils speak there is no need to put down another vendor or try to sway and debate consumer with what you believe is your superior Oud intelligence. It makes you look like you have an agenda or you're not too sure about your product, like you're trying to convince or dictate rather than share.

Certain vendors have said, "If you have a problem with me, my product, don't buy from me, please go elsewhere". I always wondered why some didn't take that advice instead of griping about vendors ways. Frankly, I have associates that are cereal killers, Captain Crunch, Lucky Charms and Frosted Flakes, so I have no issue being around the most dubious of characters but they should know don't try it with me. However, If the behavior reaches me, bad character and bad business practices exceed quality of oud, I exercise personal responsibility instead of griping. In the case of a vendor, I speak my mind, vote with my dollar and cast my vote elsewhere.

So, In a nutshell, immoral, dishonest, hurtful and disrespectful practices should not be given immunity or be disregarded simply because they were perpetrated under the cloak of 'business'. And, if you have any problem with seeing that being done to others or if you have a problem when it's done to you, vote with your dollar; until that happens those vendors will continue unabated, winning.

In ourselves and others...
SUnP5Lq.png
Simply superb. But do be careful around those dubious cereal killers. Captain Crunch simply frightens me.
 

F4R1d0uX

Resident Artisan
I will assume I am the cool customer :Cooler::Laugh::Laugh::p
You're both cool customer and gentleman ! But you know it already lol.

I was more talking about headache customer who can be a cool individual out of trade.

What I was ppinting is to not stamp a whole personality just on customer approach.
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
Secondly, with regard to the true value of $2500 oud oils, I think the only way to fairly tackle the subject would be to conduct a blind sample test. Of course this would require men with the means to donate costly samples, and of course the corresponding generosity. It might even require courage to make such a donation, as a 2500$ oil might depreciate in face of such a valuation. Then one would need careful and impartial design of the test by a referee or referees. Dependable testers, a single format for testing and recording impressions, time limits on delivering findings, etc.
However, by mixing a handful of unknown oud oils from different perceived values, and accumulating their scores from completely blind judgments, one could at least get a better snapshot regarding the oils' true olfactory values.

That's it!

The rest will be done by the olfactory. Such tests have been made; therefore, price has been considered the Promethean unbound. Otherwise, every body is sensible enough to understand the rationale behind pricing and other matters, if any.

I found my thoughts wandering last night and I kept imagining an oud blind test challenge.
Someone should really get the ball rolling on something like that.
And not just for the reality check regarding perceived value, but also for the pure thrill of such an exercise,
I think ouddicts everywhere would love to observe such a challenge and that beyond the educational process, it should reignite a spark in our shared passion.
 
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Faizal_p

Sulaym.co.uk
Great Idea, it would be an experiment to try out perhaps at the Oud fayre. Each vendor can supply 3 or 4 samples labeled 1 to 4 or a third party person could take samples from each vendor and label them without letting anyone know. Then through the course of the weekend visitors can try the oils and give them a numerical rating...? something along these lines would be very interesting
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
@powdernose many claim to be objective....this i feel is the only real way and have said so for a long time! Blind testing no story, info or vendor mention.....pure scent and nose.

Rally the troops!! :)

Yes, and beyond the obvious biases that vendor, price, story, suggestion and affiliation might inflict,
what people may not realise is just how naked and introspective blind testing can be;
unconscious preconceptions, true olfactory ability, unexpected inclinations, foundation of preference - everything is stripped and challenged.
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
I agree and it needs someone who likes all types of oud and known to be skilled :Thumbsup:

In my opinion that would re-introduce some bias.
A good panel should be a rainbow panel, and, I think, should include one 'virgin' nose.
Of course you'd want a couple of skilled of noses in there! And in fact, you'd want the reviewers equipped with fine communicative skills.
But I believe one should also seek experienced ouddicts, regardless of personal oud preferences, and regardless of their command of language.

Great Idea, it would be an experiment to try out perhaps at the Oud fayre. Each vendor can supply 3 or 4 samples labeled 1 to 4 or a third party person could take samples from each vendor and label them without letting anyone know. Then through the course of the weekend visitors can try the oils and give them a numerical rating...? something along these lines would be very interesting

A great start! And it sounds like it would be fun for the fayre.
But what I envisioned was an intensive exercise of testing.
Being at a fayre provides neither the required time to truly test an oud out, nor the necessary solitude to be introspective and analytical.
 

Habz786

Resident Artisan & Ouddict Co-Founder
The challenge is how to do this and be fair? I will have a think as its not very simple, any suggestions from Ouddicts would be welcome. We could have 3 members opt for the blind testing and pay postage, i could pick out random oil from say 4 vendors from my collection and send them out. Or vendors could send me samples they want blind tested i would be happy to offer Habzoud oils. We could have a section created on the forum for the blind testing reviews, results.....
 

powdernose

Oud Sprite
The challenge is how to do this and be fair?

Precisely!

I will have a think as its not very simple, any suggestions from Ouddicts would be welcome. We could have 3 members opt for the blind testing and pay postage,

I'd suggest 5 testers.
One idea is not just an opt in, but actual selection of candidates by the community.
Another idea I had when I first imagined this, is having secret candidates. You get selected, receive an invitation and opt in or out,
but are not allowed to tell anyone else you have been approached or are participating until results are posted.

i could pick out random oil from say 4 vendors from my collection and send them out. Or vendors could send me samples they want blind tested i would be happy to offer Habzoud oils. We could have a section created on the forum for the blind testing reviews, results.....

That would depend on the extent of your collection and what knowledge any participant has of the content of your collection.
Another of my original thoughts was to have a neutral referee send out samples.
1. The referee receives oils from sources A, B, C...
2. The referee decides which oils will be part of the trial. Not every oil from the initial pool will be used.
3. Each participant receives oils with a different numbering. i.e For Participant1 Borneo 50k will be sample no.1, while for Participant2 it will be sample no.3.
4. Results are posted directly to the forum on agreed date by participants, or to another neutral participant.
5. The referee collates the results.


@Mod
Perhaps move related posts to a new dedicated thread,
if this gathers steam.
(I hope)
 
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